If at first you don't succeed...

[Thorondor]

... you know what they say: try and try again.

 

::

 

An interesting AI showcase going on there. And the fellow's fun continues on the night-time Terror Mission... so I thought to share.

[Zombie]

Hehe, I remember seeing this once before already. I really like Necroscope's commentary in all of his Let's Play games.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

- Zombie

[Zombie]

I've watched through a whole bunch of videos of his now (up to#55). The one thing which bothers me is the save-reload trick which he does all the time or never. Pick a way and stick with it. He runs very small squads (max of 5 men). When one is injured in battle he hires a single recruit, waits for him/her to arrive, then fires the soldier immediately if Bravery isn't above 50. Then he hires another soldier and repeats the same process over and over. Meanwhile, his squad is too small to be of use.

 

The next person I see who screens soldiers exclusively over bravery and thinks that stat is most important/un-trainable, I'm going to come to your house personally and punch you in the skull, ok? Don't do this! First of all, bravery is trainable, it just takes a while. Secondly, bravery isn't that important of a trait. Sure, it does help to ward off panicking but only sometimes. If you want to prevent alien panic attacks from succeeding, Psi Strength and Skill are the primary factors for success/failure. Only if an attack gets through this barrier will your soldier go through a panic roll.

 

Right, getting back to recruiting. Instead of the single soldier hiring/firing scheme, he should hire 10. That way your chances are better of getting at least one soldier which meets expectations. On top of this it takes less time. For example, if you hired 10 soldiers sequentially and the last one in the group met with your satisfaction, it would take one full month to get a single trooper. However, if you hire 10 at a clip, you'll probably get at least one soldier you like out of the group. This takes only 3 days to resolve. The less time your soldiers are undermanned, the more missions you can go on because you'll be at full force at all times.

 

Another thing I noticed a lot on YouTube videos is that people have a tendency to keep their crews bare bones. For instance, they barely have enough soldiers to run a mission but if one gets injured they need to hire another soldier to replace him. Unfortunately getting soldiers takes time, and what happens if your entire squad of soldiers is on a mission when the aliens infiltrate your base? It's game over my friend, that's what happens. Why don't people hire more soldiers and garrison them at the base until they are needed (preventative inventory control)? That way you don't have to go scrounging for troops at the last minute to fill the ranks due to death or injury. Maybe people just don't want to deal with it or maybe they aren't good at managing inventory, but whatever the case it's inefficient and dangerous.

 

Having worked in inventory control for many years, I can tell you that just-in-time inventory is not always the most efficient or cost productive. Maintaining a little more overhead than not enough (especially on popular items) has a couple benefits. It allows you to buy more and get a better price due to quantity or bulk deals (doesn't happen in X-COM unfortunately). As said before, if a situation comes up where you need more of something you don't have to sweat it because you have it on-hand already. You also have to worry about stocking time. It takes less time to put a lot of something away than it does to put a little away each day for a longer time. You might get called away for a day and then you'll be behind if another load comes in. It's much better to get supplies in when it's quiet because you'll have the time to deal with it properly. If you arrange for shipment when it's busy it will not get put away and you'll be tripping over it because it's in the isles. Additionally, you can schedule shipments to arrive on a certain day and plan to have a temp worker there to take care of it. When the job is done, he goes home until he is needed again. Much better than having someone there each day no matter what because he will invariably screw around to fill time if there isn't enough work. (We are all guilty of this, some more than others though). Also, I'd like to bring up the point that if you get a quantity of something in which is popular you will not have to worry too much about a supplier discontinuing the item because you'll have some time to do the necessary research to find another source. Again, this doesn't happen in X-COM, but if it did I think it would be a little more interesting.

 

So I'm not really sure what the problem is with neglecting to maintain a spare group of soldiers at all times. Maybe players would rather have more scientists or engineers around which can pay for themselves. Or maybe they feel they will not have casualties. But when you have the cash, why not order some more? That's my feeling at least and it hasn't let me down when playing this game. Could a reason be that people don't like the management aspect as much as the strategic? Both go hand-in-hand. But there really isn't a major penalty in this game for neglecting one aspect over another. That's what allows players to get away with suspect practices and still finish the game basically unhindered.

 

Well, this is part one of my vent for the week. I welcome a discussion on this because I want to know if (and how) people manage their personnel and inventory.

 

- Zombie

[NKF]

Bravery is mainly useful if you are in the habit of losing lots of soldiers during combat and your efforts against the aliens aren't enough to balance the morale loss. It's hard to convince others that it isn't an anti-psi barrier.

 

You know we've probably analyzed the game a bit too much when we start telling folks to not sack anyone and just go with the cards they've been dealt until they've learned the psi stats. Weak stats do shoot up fast if given a chance and it is more fun to let (seemingly) hopeless soldiers surprise you.

 

Small squads can work if done right. It's easier to manage a smaller number of soldiers. I notice myself doing that a lot in Apocalypse, but not so much in UFO/TFTD. But indeed, you do need an emergency buffer of troops/equipment back home no matter how you approach the game. Not too much to the point of overcrowding, but enough to fill the void when a mission goes bad - or if a Battleship suddenly swoops in for the kill while the Skyranger's away.

 

- NKF

[Thorondor]

It's interesting that you mention it, Zombie, because I was wondering myself if I had somehow missed a "bravery" craze.

 

I can see the benefits of small squads as I lean towards that as well (average of 6-8), but not so small a contingent as in the vids. Four guys on a night-time terror mission in poor early game gear is just not smart, even if they rack up more experience that way.

 

A squad on the smaller side can also have the meta-benefit of fostering a better knowledge of each element's specific abilities and you'll know everyone by name.

 

I find the latter endearingly silly, because they have randomised names that I default to sticking to. This translates to soulless entities fitting for cannon-fodder on the one hand, and kind of makes them unique on the other, since you didn't name them, and if they survive a handful of missions or more they may well have an episode or two to remember them by.

 

As for my first batch of soldiers I like to mostly err on the side of Accuracy (firing or throwing). I like it when they occasionally hit the broad side of a barn and vanilla grenades are nice equalizers for those that stubbornly still won't...

 

In terms of reloading, it's something I might or might not do rather arbitrarily, depending on the situation. An utterly idiotic shot that impossibly misses, your whole best squad dead, a click that makes a soldier move when he wasn't the one intended, etc.

 

In any case, and in terms of personnel selection the game doesn't seem to be tendentious, to the untrained eye at least, and so leaves things open for subjective player criteria, which is probably not a bad thing at all as it adds choice and diversity.

 

As a result I actually prefer this approach over what happens in, say, JA2, where you'll invariably end up knowing which are the best hires for the early, mid and late stages of the game.

 

The same sort of basic leeway can be observed in other areas of EU such as base placement and when to make a second base for instance.

 

Of course, I do realise you may have already developed a quantic equation to nail down precisely the best coordinates and timing for such seemingly erratic decisions, Zombie...

 

::

 

Incidentally: the trooper on the clip I linked to that fails to hit the alien point-blank doesn't deserve a slapping; it's those who tried to dump him on you for cash that need a beating!

[Zombie]

It's interesting that you mention it, Zombie, because I was wondering myself if I had somehow missed a "bravery" craze.

 

I can see the benefits of small squads as I lean towards that as well (average of 6-8), but not so small a contingent as in the vids. Four guys on a night-time terror mission in poor early game gear is just not smart, even if they rack up more experience that way.

 

A squad on the smaller side can also have the meta-benefit of fostering a better knowledge of each element's specific abilities and you'll know everyone by name.

 

I find the latter endearingly silly, because they have randomised names that I default to sticking to. This translates to soulless entities fitting for cannon-fodder on the one hand, and kind of makes them unique on the other, since you didn't name them, and if they survive a handful of missions or more they may well have an episode or two to remember them by.

One of the things I prefer to stay away from in this game is taking 50-100 turns to finish a mission. It's insane to spend that much time on a map for very little reward or benefit. Small squads and having soldiers with few Time Units is not conducive to cutting the time down. It's also extremely hazardous because there is no way you can properly search a map. You either

 

1. Spread your troops thin in hopes to cover a larger area but giving up the strategy of cover fire, or
   
2. Clump them together and hope the aliens don't circle around and create a crossfire or ambush situation, or toss a grenade in your midst.
   

Small squads in the beginning of the game just doesn't work that well for me. By bringing enough troops you can search multiple areas of the landscape simultaneously while still providing cover fire and holding the ground you acquired. In the case of the larger UFOs you are able to search multiple floors while still covering the exits in case your search of the landscape wasn't good enough. The same goes for an alien base where the map is huge and there are many interconnected hallways and dangerous modules to clear. Besides, you have a craft capable of carrying 14 troops into combat initially yet you only start with 8 soldiers. It makes no sense to run a 60% full Skyranger around when you can fill it up and train a whole team.

 

Later on when your soldiers have more TU, better armor, tanks and psionic abilities, squad size can be reduced significantly. Still, I'd never drop down below about 10 soldiers for any of the larger missions. I still need to use the buddy system and that requires 4 groups of 2 to search each direction of the map plus an additional 2 soldiers for either launching psionic attacks or blaster bombs depending on the situation.

 

As for my first batch of soldiers I like to mostly err on the side of Accuracy (firing or throwing). I like it when they occasionally hit the broad side of a barn and vanilla grenades are nice equalizers for those that stubbornly still won't...

I wouldn't worry about a soldier's initial Throwing Accuracy much. That is the only stat which can be increased without requiring a kill or a hit. Just toss stuff around 11+ times at the end of a mission which puts you into the guaranteed 2-6 point increase range. Simple stuff. Not only that, but initial recruits start with the highest min and max of any of the normal stats. It's by far the easiest trait to train.

 

You can't do anything to actively train Time Units, Stamina, Health or Strength. These stats all rely on your soldier to improve in Firing Accuracy, Reactions, Melee (Stun Rod usage), or Psi Skill. In the case of FA and Reactions these stats in turn require hits on a target or reaction fire attempts. (Stun Rodding is dangerous behavior for rookies and should only be employed by field commanders with plenty of experience and Psi Skill isn't a stat you can train unless you get enrolled in a Psi University). So the only stats I'd consider screening for in initial recruits are Firing Accuracy and Reactions. At the beginning, Reactions is probably the hardest stat to train because if it's low your soldier will almost always fail the reaction fire test against an alien. But if you keep those low reaction soldiers around into the psionic age, you can set up firing lines with unarmed aliens for use as target practice.

 

I keep all the soldiers I'm given initially and hire a bunch more (no filtering or screening used). Invariably, one of the crappiest soldiers will turn out to be great in Psi while the commander I lovingly trained up to super-status is most likely a wimp in this area. However, even low-psi soldiers can be useful as psi sponges later on...

 

In terms of reloading, it's something I might or might not do rather arbitrarily, depending on the situation. An utterly idiotic shot that impossibly misses, your whole best squad dead, a click that makes a soldier move when he wasn't the one intended, etc.

The only time I ever reload is when I'm testing (duh it's for business), if I misclick or if the computer makes a crazy decision on pathfinding. Everything else goes. If my entire squad dies on the first round from an alien grenade or a blaster bomb, good job aliens, but I'll be back.

 

- Zombie

[NKF]

I don't think I could endure planning and moving 100s of turns. Even with a small squad. However I can easily hit those numbers as I have short bursts of movement followed by lots of quiet periods in between while waiting to see if something will happen. Turns move fast when you do nothing. Psi and blasters preclude the luxury of patience or when you've got protective smoke screens.

 

Speaking of low starting reactions, as long as the soldiers are given a chance and make the attempts at 100% of their TUs (while the aliens are at less than 100%), they are quite adequate. The low reactions means that they not be able to work as forwards scouts or be relied on to take any return fire when using the TU reserve buttons. There is also the reaction queue that lets all soldiers that qualify for a particular reaction shot 'round' to earn the experience should the alien die prior to them getting their chance. This means reactions are best trained in packs.

 

By the way, due to the silliness with grenade experience attribution giving you the same experience as hitting with a bullet, you can train anti-marksmen into marksmen by letting them take on a brief spell as grenadiers. That's what's great about this game - There's always something you can do.

 

- NKF

[Thorondor]

In terms of mission turn count I don't like to slog through a mission in the 100s any more than the next guy.

 

I usually err on the side of caution during scouting and tactical sweeps, which will inevitably take more time when you have less people at hand to cover ground.

 

The number of soldiers you bring on a mission will always be a double-edged sword, however, because to gain the extra coverage you'll also have to iterate through more people each turn, every turn.

 

In terms of field duty, I confess the first complement I usually get to a squad is a Tank/Rocket Launcher, not more men. I like the thing's firepower (even if ammo count is pretty limited) and for scouting duties. Its inconveniences are that it's a sizable target for trigger-happy aliens and an expensive thing to see rather easily scrapped too...

 

Overall, standard repetitiveness to tactical gameplay applies, to be sure, but the game does a good job rewarding players by gradually "unlocking" new weapons and equipment, while unravelling more of the plot.

 

::

 

Research progression needing alien specimen/tech retrieval seems to provide the right mechanism for pacing advancement and the right motivation for players to fight on. So EU's design deserves at least some credit there as well...

[Zombie]

I usually err on the side of caution during scouting and tactical sweeps, which will inevitably take more time when you have less people at hand to cover ground.

 

The number of soldiers you bring on a mission will always be a double-edged sword, however, because to gain the extra coverage you'll also have to iterate through more people each turn, every turn.

Not necessarily. There's nothing which says you have to move everyone each round. This is especially true if you found yourself a safe place to hole up for a while and regroup: building, backside of a UFO, main door(s) of the UFO and around lifts inside a UFO after you swept the floor in that level are the usual spots. If you use the strategy of leap-frogging you may not need to move everyone either due to leaving enough TU for opportunity fire. Also, if you have rear commanders, those guys never move from the rear of the transport (or at least not very far) and only use Mind Probes, Psi-Amps or Blaster Launchers in support of your scouts on the battlefield. Of course, as your soldiers improve and gain more TU, moving everyone isn't necessary. Personally I never found it that much of a hassle to move my troops around as long as they were making progress and searching.

 

In terms of field duty, I confess the first complement I usually get to a squad is a Tank/Rocket Launcher, not more men. I like the thing's firepower (even if ammo count is pretty limited) and for scouting duties. Its inconveniences are that it's a sizable target for trigger-happy aliens and an expensive thing to see rather easily scrapped too...

Not to mention that it's weapon has an area effect meaning you can't use it in close quarter support of your troops as one misfire is bound to kill someone. It's a much better scout than a Tank/Cannon though.

 

Finally finished watching all of Necroscope's videos on YouTube today. He made fewer mistakes toward the end of the game which was good but he royally screwed up the first part of the Cydonia mission though.

 

Mistake #1: He had Electro-flares on his ship but never equipped anyone with them (nor even made an attempt to use them), than wonders why the aliens can see him but he can't see the aliens. Cydonia is dark as night and you need light sources to extend your LOS up to the level of the aliens to even the playing field. You can't rely on Psi to extend LOS either because once the unit reverts back to alien status the area is dark again.

 

Mistake #2: Not properly screening his final team for Psi. Sure, it may be nice to bring along your Commander, but if he only has 10 for Psi Strength he's gonna get picked on relentlessly. (Could have used the commander as a psi sponge, but then you can't give him a weapon to make it effective/harmless). Necro also missed the bill in Psi in the months leading up to his final assault too. He had plenty of time to sack soldiers who weren't up to snuff in this field and hire new troops who were better. Nope, he had to choose a couple soldiers with high 60's for Psi Strength. That itself isn't a problem assuming their Psi Skill is sufficiently high to offset the other one. But these soldiers were suspect to me and I would never have used them for a final assault.

 

Mistake #3: Using tanks almost exclusively as scouts. Again, this isn't a bad thing if you have the firepower to back up the tank should it get into trouble. There are a ton of pyramids on the upper Mars surface and the only way to search them is with small units. If you park your tank in front of one of the pyramid's doors, you are just asking to get it killed IMHO. Only moving a tank every other round isn't going to cut it either: if the role of a tank is supposed to be for scouting, use it to scout - not to sit around idle every other round.

 

Mistake #4: Keeping mostly all your soldiers inside the Avenger. Once you clear an area (which he sorta did initially), it's fairly safe to bring some soldiers out to do some scouting of their own as long as you space them a bit. Keeping soldiers in the air makes them a more visible target, but on the other hand, an alien grenade tossed at the soldier isn't going to hurt him if he's flying. Clearing the Avenger of some soldiers also allows the guys with Blaster Launchers to have an open path for setting waypoints.

 

Good points: he had the Cyberdiscs shoot themselves to remove the threat. Always a nice strategy. If I have soldiers with high psi, I like to try to use them as scouts though because they can basically move 4 times as much as a normal unit can per turn. You can uncover a lot of area that way. Preemptive Blaster Bombing: blindly shell an area where there is known alien activity. Never hurts to do this. I would have taken it one step further by trying to nuke the pyramids far away so your scouts can concentrate in other areas. Exploiting alien inventory via going through your units: it's a great way to access what an alien has and he almost pulled off a nice 2-for-1 special inside a pyramid when he had one Sectoid prime it's grenade. Unfortunately he forgot to drop it on the ground and the two Sectoids came back to haunt him later on.

 

I'm not going to critique the second part of the mission because it may spoil things for people, but he did a better job underground anyway. (It's basically a glorified alien base and we all know what that looks like).

 

- Zombie

[Jman4117]

I'm up to about #16. This guy sucks. Can't keep his tiny squad alive without lots of reloading. He needs to go with a tank and 10 guys, from the very beginning. He didn't even field his first tank to go with his 1-5 guy beat up squad until he had about $12mill in the bank. And he sacks excellent soliders if they don't have at least 50 bravery for some reason. At one point he sacked a solid trooper with 60 reactions before sending in his only guy that had enough bravery to suit him... The bravery wouldn't really matter if he had enough guys to keep from getting overwelmed... >.>

[Zombie]

Yeah, the bravery screening thing is baffling to me. I've seen a number of people on YouTube who use it and for the most part it doesn't really help. They never recognize this and continue to use the same strategy throughout the entire game. And like you said, small squads exacerbate the issue even more by not giving you enough firepower which would essentially make bravery screening moot. My feeling is that most of the YouTube videos are great for showing people how not to play the game...

 

- Zombie

[Kratos]

I remember when I reloaded all the time for this game...all the way up to playing UFO2000 where I realized I couldn't do that against online players. Then I stopped altogether...well just 1 here and there. But yea, reloading is just horrible excuse to play a game IMHO.