Damage Modifiers for Aliens

[Zombie]

For the past week, I have been on a quest to find out why a HE-25 shell did the same damage to a Quarterpod on the ground as in the air. If you remember from my HE-50 trials for the Quarterpod, that shell will do between 16 and 48 points of damage on the ground, and between 20 and 60 points in the air.

 

I found the original saved game I used for those tests archived on a floppy disc. When I gathered another smaller sampling of 200 values for the HE-50 ground, I noticed the damage was between 20 and 60. Crappola! Why is it different now?

 

Well, it could be one of two things:

1) I was using a corrupted file. I doubt this, as NKF hadn't told me how to manually edit units in the air at that point in time. -OR-

2) Tester error.

 

The second scenario seems like the most obvious choice. It's possible that there were some "messy" numbers in there. The 16 for the low could be attributed to shooting at the ground by the Quarterpod's feet. I can't really explain the high of 48 damage points though. It could be any number of factors, but an error on my part seems to be the only conclusion I can draw. Sorry about that, but I'm only human, and those HE tests are fairly tricky to run.

 

So as it stands now, a HE shell will do the same damage to a unit on the ground or in the air.

 

Now that I know that there is no difference, I can restart the trials for the full Sectopod with HE-25 ammo. I'll try to get one of those tests done this weekend, if everything goes as planned.

[Zombie]

If you remember from my previous posts, I was having some problems understanding why my HE-25 trials for the ground and air had the same range of values, while the HE-50 trial for the ground had a damage range of 16 to 48 and the air was 20 to 60. I considered these possibilities:

1) My initial HE-50 ground trial was wrong, or

2) My current saved game is corrupted, or

3) There is a minimum HE charge where the air will be more than the ground.

 

Obviously, I ruled out option 2 as all the numbers I'm gathering are fine. Option 3 really didn't make much sense to me. That left option 1 as the culprit. But why was it wrong? As I explained in my last post, I thought it was "tester error". If it was indeed tester error, the frequency of a damage number between 16 and 20 should be really low - like 5 or 10 times out of 1000. When I looked at the actual distribution tally, this is what I saw:

 

Damage:     16     17     18     19     20
Frequency:  34     26     25     19     43

Immediately, I knew that since there was a high distribution of numbers that I was not creating erroneous damages by shooting at the ground. Also, I should have had some damage numbers between 48 and 60. Since the frequency seemed fine, that could only mean one thing: the HE weapon damage was different. But how much?

 

Well, since the Min for the ground was 16 and the Max was 48, the average damage inflicted would be 32. That is not the weapon damage though. In order to find that we need to divide 32 by 0.8 (the damage modifier for a Sectopod). Result: a weapon damage of 40! Since no HE weapons in the game deal this damage, it led me to believe that my OBDATA file somehow got "corrupted" so that the HC-HE shells did 40 for damage.

 

Don't ask me how this happened. I did have a couple of non-vicious computer viruses during that period of time, but I doubt they were to blame as they only manifested in the exe files. I also installed XComUtil during this time and I might have inadvertantly changed that HE shell to 40. Who knows, it could almost be anything. At least I caught the problem now, because if I blindly continued on with the trials, we might have taken those numbers as fact. So everyone should know that all HE explosions create the same damage in the air as on the ground.

 

----------

 

I have been collecting damage numbers for the full Sectopod with HE-25 ammo for the past couple of days. I refused to study the damage or stun numbers closely until I gathered more values. So far, the numbers can't be pinned down to a distinct range yet. I'll let you know what I come up with after I gather the usual 1000 values.

 

- Zombie

[Bomb Bloke]

I dunno if this helps, but you can lock datafiles by opening them with certain hex editors. This could cause some numbers to remain where they shouldn't, but would most likely provide results that were obviously flawed (eg no variation at all in numbers).

[Zombie]

Is MS Edit one of those editors?

 

The only file I ever edit is the unitpos.dat so my units have "flying" ability. The HE damage of 40 was somehow changed in the obdata.dat file. I never open that up because it could undermine all of my data. That's what I'm trying to avoid.

 

By the way, I have a couple of questions about your logging program. I'll PM you with the specifics.

[Bomb Bloke]

Unitpos wouldn't be a problem. If unitref or obdata got locked, however, that might produce errors - health levels wouldn't change, or damage dealt could get messed up. It's a bit unlikely, though...

 

MS Edit? Not sure. Could very well be. That can open very large files without much trouble, so I assume it loads them from the drive as you read them, keeping the files locked so long as the viewer is open. I assume.

[NKF]

Zombie: I don't remember if this has been discussed, but could you compare how much damage is dealt to the target standing on the UFO tiles against the units standing on the grass/wheat?

 

Was just doing a quick comparison of incendiary impact damage when I realsied that after several tries, the test subject on the ufo tiles seemed to suffer less impact damage than the units on the other tiles. It could've just been a freak occurance, but I thought it best to get a second opinion.

 

Could this be the same occurence where the tile softens the damage for high explosives?

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

Zombie: I don't remember if this has been discussed, but could you compare how much damage is dealt to the target standing on the UFO tiles against the units standing on the grass/wheat?

With what kind of ammunition? High Explosive, or Incendiary? From my tests with the various landscapes, the type of tile the unit is standing on plays no role in how much damage it receives. (Could you imagine the consequences if this was true? Every different tile would have to be tested separately!)

 

I could see how Incendiary ammunition might cause varying amounts of damage on the different tiles. UFO floor tiles are not flammable and if caught on fire they will extinguish themselves within 3 rounds. Tiles with tall grass or wheat are flammable and stay lit for a number of turns depending on the amount of fuel available. But impact damage? I don't think so. The OSG is quite explicit when it says:

 

Units that catch fire receive from 5 to 10 damage points per turn until the fire is out. Units standing in a fire receive from 1 to 12 damage points per turn.

Remember this? Impact damage is actually a determination if the unit caught fire. If it didn't, it remains undamaged. If it did catch fire, the game does a random roll to determine how much (between 5 & 10 points). My data seems to back this up so I have no reason to discredit it.

 

Oh, and one other thing about high explosives. If a unit is standing on the ground or in the air it receives the same range of damage. My initial tests which hinted at this were flawed for some reason (probably a corrupted obdata.dat file). Sorry for that, but I at least caught the mistake before it became "law". It's up to you to erase this from your memory banks and rewrite it.

[NKF]

I was just referring to incendiary impact damage. It just seemed that the unit standing on the ufo tiles took less damage than the ones on the weaker terrain.

 

As I said, it's probably just a freak coincidence, but you never know. I for one hope it isn't, for the reason you mentioned.

 

- NKF

[Bomb Bloke]

Each tile has an HE block stat. Well, according to DiaShiva's module viewer. Not sure what that means.

[Zombie]

Each tile has an HE block stat. Well, according to DiaShiva's module viewer. Not sure what that means.

Sure you do! Remember our little discussion about HE blockage numbers, armor and the amount of damage it takes to destroy a brain segment in Cydonia? It's on page 3 of the Two Quick Questions thread.

 

Blockage numbers are used to determine how much damage must be inflicted to a tile before it is displayed as "destroyed". It shouldn't have any effect on the damage modifier tests.

[Bomb Bloke]

Oh... Uh, yeah, that's right.

[Knan]

Integers used 2 bytes in C++ "back in the day", on 16-bit processors running DOS.  That gave a range of values from -32,768 to 32,767.

 

Now, most systems (32-bit processors running Windows 9x, 2000, NT, or XP, for example) use 4 byte integers in C++, with a range of values from -2,147,483,648 to 2,147,483,647.

 

Sticking with the C++ example, both old-style and current floating-point numbers (aka real numbers) use 4 bytes, and have up to 7 digits of precision.  There are more precise data types that require more bytes.

 

I used C++ as a standard because it's fairly consistent with other languages.  Does anyone know what language XCOM was originally programmed in? 

 

If we assume XCOM used 2 byte integers, then using real numbers of 4 bytes would have at least doubled the memory required for every variable--and probably would have had an impact on game performance using same-time-period computers.

 

And the thread would not die. A small observation: The use of integer probably comes down to a fpu being rather optional in those days... and thus floating-point calculations being dreadfully slow due to software emulation.

 

It runs fine on a 486sx-25, for example... while it could be fitted with an external fpu, that was not common. And a 486sx still was a commonly sold entry-level computer in early 1994, so they pretty much had to cater to the users without a hardware floating-point calculation unit.

 

- Knan

[Danial]

Have you, by any chance, tested the Alien Terrorist damage ratings? I'm curious to know if the OSG got these correct.

 

Projectile Attacks:
------------------

Celatid Acid Spit:     140
Cyberdisc Plasma Beam: 130
Sectopod Energy Beam:  100

Melee Attacks: (equal to Strength stat)
-------------

Silacoid:    70| 73| 76| 79| 82
Chryssalid: 110|115|120|125|130
Reaper:      90| 94| 98|102|106
Zombie:      84| 88| 92| 96|100

[Zombie]

No I haven't. Let me see what I can do. *Zombie rushes off*

 

Okay, the only saved game I have on hand with terrorists is a Battleship with Sectoids and Cyberdiscs. Now, because the Cyberdisc has a plasma weapon dealing an assumed range between 0 and 260 points of damage (130 listed), that means I needed to muck around with the armor rating of my soldier since health only goes up to 255. I finally decided on a health rating of 250 and armor of 10. Because of the armor, it effectively makes it impossible to test the lower range of the weapon. The best we can get is a range between 11 and 260. It's definitely not the preferred way to test, but it should suffice since all we are after is the max.

 

Right, so I ran about 75 trials. Granted, it's not 1000 values but the max of 260 (250 health + 10 armor) was hit once and the actual average matched the anticipated average. With no damage modifiers in effect for plasma against unarmored soldiers, that means the Cyberdisc can dish out a max of 260 damage points.

 

- Zombie

[Danial]

So it's looking like the OSG's data might be correct on this. I have a Muton Terror Site save with Celatids and Silacoids, but if the Celatid does 280 max damage, it'll be hard to check. Would giving the soldiers 250HP and 30 Armour work?

 

The savegame is on Beginner too, so I could only test the one level of Silacoid Melee. I'll see what I can come up with...

[MikeTheRed]

There's also Hobbes' mix of aliens, and I have an alien base with silacoid and celatids, here.

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a Sectopod.

[Zombie]

So it's looking like the OSG's data might be correct on this. I have a Muton Terror Site save with Celatids and Silacoids, but if the Celatid does 280 max damage, it'll be hard to check. Would giving the soldiers 250HP and 30 Armour work?

 

The savegame is on Beginner too, so I could only test the one level of Silacoid Melee. I'll see what I can come up with...

Just remember that for the Celatid's Acid spit, damage modifiers come into play for guys wearing no armor (1.6x), and personal armor is supposedly 1.1x listed damage. The Flying Suit should take normal damage against the Celatid so if you edit health to 250 and armor to 30 it should work. Just remember to add 30 to your damage score.

 

Oh yeah, one last thing: if your man takes the max (280) you'll know it because he falls dead. Nothing to worry about because death is defined as health=0. So as long as it happens 0.35% of the time you are fine. Any more than this, and the listed damage might be off.

 

- Zombie

[Danial]

I just did a brief test (15 runs) of a Silacoid attack, with some unusal results:

 

First of all, I got a fatal wound EVERY time. 5 in some cases.

 

Also, it caused stun! Ranging from 0 to 29!!

 

I know 15 tests is not as full-on as your tests, Zombie, but BB's logger has a habit of crashing UFO on my computer, so it starts getting annoying after a while... I think I'll leave the testing up to you, Zombie

[Zombie]

Well, lemme give it a try. I have a saved game to work off of now.

 

Fatal wounds are fairly common, especially with the very high damage potentials. They usually happen when there is little to no armor present. The number of fatal wounds depend on total damage possible (me thinks), but is a random roll. From my tests over at xcomufo, I was getting a max of 4 Fatal wounds for 170 max damage.

 

As for stun, sure, it happens for all weapons. My tests with the Cyberdisc produced stun levels as high as 53. Problem is, you can't get a good approximation with armor present because it may play a role. I'd assume stun amount is a random roll between 0 and 20% max strength of the weapon just like HE produces. It might be as high as 25% though. Melee is no different than any weapon so it makes sense.

 

Q: are you using BB's latest logger which needs Sun's JAVA to run? I never have a problem with that version. Then again, you have frequent crashes anyhow, so it may not be BB's logger which is the culprit.

 

- Zombie

[Danial]

I am using BB's latest logger... got it off him just the other day

 

Anyhow, as for my results. I was using soldiers with 200HP and 10 Armour. This was because I was playing with the Silacoid, whose 70 strength, should have resulted in 0-140 damage. In my small test, I got between 14 and 192 damage. Though I'm not holding these figures as accurate, seeing as the crashing might have caused consistency problems.

 

The Terrorists are my favourite Aliens, so an data you could dig up would be greatly appreciated

[Zombie]

That's rather surprising, Danial. 14-192 is quite a bit off, wouldn't you agree?

 

Here is something interesting. I just got a terror site with Snakemen and Chryssalids. I spent a good chunk of time setting it up, editing both soldier and alien alike. Just for fun, I ran a few tests with the Chryssalid. The problem was that my man turned into a Zombie every time because the attack was always successful. Dummy me. Looks like I may need to use X-COM controlled aliens as "test subjects". You live, you learn.

 

- Zombie

[Bomb Bloke]

Crashes? What sort of crashes?

 

The be technical about it, the logger doesn't run while UFO runs... The batch file starts one program up, waits until it is done, then starts the other one up, and so forth.

[Danial]

Sometimes (I'd guess about 1 in 6) when I click the "Alien Turn" button, the screen will go black with an error window, saying UFO has caused an error *yada yada yada*, would you like to send this information to microsoft *yada yada yada*...

 

If I click 'No', it will simply open the logger window, asking to Continue or Ctl+C, and if I continue, it goes back into UFO as if nothing had happened...

 

And for the record, Zombie, since I got my new computer back in Feb, I haven't had any problems with UFO crashing at all

[Zombie]

And for the record, Zombie, since I got my new computer back in Feb, I haven't had any problems with UFO crashing at all

I was uninformed that you got a new computer. I'm glad you can finally play UFO without all those problems.

 

Anyhow, back to the discussion on HTH attacks. I got a Reaper on a terror mission and started to test it out. Since I now have some editing skills under my belt, I decided to quickly test out whether it takes 14 TU for one HTH attack. So I edited the Reaper to have 14 current/max TU and then let it loose. Not one time did it try to attack my soldier. Now I edited current/max TU to 15 and ran the tests again. This time, the Reaper attacked. So it takes 15 TU for a single HTH attack.

 

By the way - I originally tested HTH time unit usage on my Playstation and it seemed to take 14 TU, so there may be a difference between versions. Then again, it is really difficult to account for every movement an alien makes in a round, so some movements may have went unnoticed.

 

- Zombie

[Danial]

That's cool. We'll have to change a few wiki pages to accommodate this new info

 

Any news on Terrorist damage ratings yet?