Damage Modifiers for Aliens

[Bomb Bloke]

Logging Program

[Zombie]

I was skimming through the USG, when I spotted in section 10.3 a guy called Paul Close, who apparently wrote a program to loop weapons tests...

 

Not sure how such a thing would be achieved, but I'm not sure how to contact him, either. The referrance is years old.

I've read that section before (and carefully, mind you) because I too was interested in actually testing out the different weapons for the damage they inflicted. For those of us unfamiliar with section 10.3, I'll copy it here:

 

10.3  THE GREAT PISTOL VS RIFLE DEBATE II (BY PAUL CLOSE)

 

Not being [as] handy with theoretical statistics as I am with

discrete simulation, I wrote a very simple program to simulate

100,000 turns where each weapon was used in as many times as

possible, up to 80% of the turn.  Since the time to use the

weapons is also a percentage of the turn, simple subtraction

sufficed.  :-)  In each case where an auto mode was available, it

was used instead of snap shot. I felt that 70-80% was a good

compromise between some movement, but still inflicting maximum

damage.

From what I understand, this "simple program" that Paul Close was talking about was not a logging program that took values directly from the game to gather data points. I think that this program was written just to "simulate" what results you could expect in a mission-type scenario. So I doubt his is actually a game-tied logging program. If you really wanted to get a hold of Paul Close to verify this, Kasey Chang (the author of the USG) might be able to point you to his whereabouts. Then again, Kasey's email address is probably not current either!

 

Bomb Bloke Posted on Nov 23 2004, 07:52 PM

Another thing the USG seem to suggest that craft speed/range was affected by what was on the craft, in terms of equipment/soldiers. Dunno about craft weapons. Could be interesting to look into. 

I tested this out while working on the information for the X-COM Craft Data thread a while back. I loaded a Skyranger completely full of equipment, HWP's and soldiers and compared the flight times to that of an empty Skyranger. Result: No difference. I checked this against the Avenger too (loaded with dual plasma cannons) plus the standard troops, HWP's and equipment. The test Avenger was barren - no craft weapons or anything in the cargo hold. Result: No difference. You really have to take everything the USG claims with a grain of salt. Most of the time, there is a flaw in the logic. And the big problem is that the guide never tested any belief made by other players to verify the validity of said statements. That's my rant.

[Bomb Bloke]

Heheh, I knew it wasn't all cannon, but I thought it would be interesting to at least test it out. However, it seems you've already covered that!

[Zombie]

Well, I did test it out, but never got around to posting my findings on this subject. So I can't prove that I said it first. However, you can trust that my information is sound!

 

It's funny, but I probably would of answered your question "whether each unit still has all four segments in the unitpos file, as per normal (even if they are at different locations)." See, NKF described how to change the height of unit in the unitpos.dat file using MS-Edit to me in a previous post. I'll quote his genaral description:

NKF Posted on Nov 22 2004, 03:08 AM

The first four in the sectopod section is the 'Au Naturale' sectopod.

 

Each soldier had one entry for height, while each Sectopod had four (20 rows/5 Sectopods=4 rows per Sectopod). However, I guess you wouldn't have known this unless you had the game to look at for a reference.

 

My question: Does your logging program work, and for what areas will it work for? Anything? Or just reloading missions?

[Bomb Bloke]

Of course it works. Why else would I post a link for it?

 

It currently only logs the health of units, however. I didn't see a current need to add anything else. That is to say, it will reload the map for you, eliminate the need to return to the geoscape, and... uh, didn't I put all this stuff in the readme file?

[Zombie]

Ummm... Sorry! I didn't actually download your program yet, therefore, how am I to know what's in the readme file? I was just curious what limitations your program had before using the thing, that's all. I'll download it and hopefully it will reduce the monotony of reloading 250 (or more) times for a single test result. Please take no offence in my questions Bomb Bloke, I was just trying to learn something about the program before I downloaded it or ran it. That's standard operating procedure for me when encountering something new!

[Bomb Bloke]

Yep, fair enough. It's nice to have people read the documentation, though.

 

It's still a beta program, but it's fully funcational in terms of doing the tests you wanna do at the moment. Other features can be added as required.

 

Note that you'll need XcomUtil to get it going, by the way.

 

Anyways, I'm off. Cya later.

[Zombie]

Bomb Bloke: I downloaded your logging program and followed the install directions listed in the readme file (and yes, I always read a program's documentation before installing it). I had xcomutil 9.5 already, so the setup was a breeze.

 

To test out the logging part, I decided to use Incendiary rounds against the Quarterpod. Then I ran the program through 20 trials (or 5 reloads), and checked the "bb_log" text file to see if anything was tabulated. Sure enough, everything functioned, but there is one slight problem due to my use of Incendiary rounds. See, if you shoot each of the four Quarterpods with incendiary ammo and then abort, the first, second and third Quarterpods are getting extra damage from the other rounds exploding during the round.

 

I'm not sure if this is even possible, but is there a way to tabulate the health numbers for each of the Quarterpods sequentially with your program? By sequentially, I mean: shoot Quarterpod#1, tabulate health, shoot Quarterpod#2, tabulate its health... shoot Quarterpod#4, tabulate its health, then abort and start the process over. Sure, I could just shoot one Quarterpod and then abort. The result would still get added to the log, but there is no time-savings if the program has to bail to the desktop to add the numbers to its registry after every trial. If this can't be done, then I guess it's back to the tried and true way: a manual gathering of the health numbers.

 

Another problem which I know I'm going to have is the stun trials. I don't suppose there is a cut-and-dried stun number hidden in a units file, is there? Here again, if you can't modify the program to take into account stun damage, then it's back to the old-fashioned way. Except for this, I will have to cut out a template to manually "translate" the stun damage into a hard number, then write the number down. It's not really that much of a problem, but it will take much longer to get some results with this method. Oh, well.

 

For the other trials, your program should significantly reduce the amount of time it takes to gather and process the necessary information. Thanks loads! Perhaps I won't get carpal-tunnel syndrome after-all!

[Bomb Bloke]

Well, I'm low on time, so gimme a day or two, I'll see what I can do.

 

Concerning the damage of sectopod components. I forgot about that glitch, and yes, it is a bit of a problem.

 

What I need to know is this. Is the damage dealt to each of the components the same, or does it vary? If it varies, there will be trouble.

 

What I recommend is this. Create a save file in which the sectopods are already sitting in fire, then take note of the health of each of them. Then, fire a single shot at one, and see if the damage dealt to each is the same. If it is not, then I probably don't need to edit the program, as you could simply fire a single shot and the net result will be as if you fired four.

 

If the damage dealt is the same for each unit, then I'll change it to automatically tweak the stats - but note that the tweaked version will not be usable for all other types of ammo!

 

As for stun, yes, that would be very easy to add to the log. However, you might like to perform the above test to check how stun works with incendary ammo as well, and report back to me with the results.

[Zombie]

I'm not in any kind of rush Bomb Bloke, so take your time. As it is, I have plenty of work just finishing the Quarterpod vs High Explosive scenarios.

 

In order to check if the Quarterpods get damage from sitting in fire, and then having an IC hit one of them, requires me to heavily "tweak" the saved game I have. Not really too tough to do, it just takes quite a bit of work. Raise the Quarterpods off the ground, shoot an IC round directly where the alien sat, lower the Quarterpod so it's in the fire, then fire off another IC round at an alien. I'll work on this tomorrow when I have more time!

 

The stun tests I mentioned before only deal with directly stunning a Quarterpod with a Stun Rod, not the little bit of stun damage dealt with a drop in health. (The amount of stun damage added with a drop in health is completely random. With the exact same drop in health, two Quarterpods will have different amounts of stun damage added). So I wasn't planning on running your scenario, since that would require tons more work. I'd kinda would like to finish an actual strict stunning scenario, before I get to the more complicated trials.

 

So wait a minute, are you implying that there is an actual stun number found in a units file? If there is one present, then that would really help me finish those trials easily! I won't have to cut out a template to read the number from the screen, just let your logging program do the grunt work!

[Bomb Bloke]

Of course there's a stun figure in there. How else would they store the value?

 

The idea with the logging program is that you can create any save game you like, with any combination of units and weapons, and it'll work. Of course, other stats like stun will have to be added, but that is simple to say the least.

 

Ok, I'm getting a bit confused about your incendary problem right now. You say you shoot one, and this deals damage to the other quarterpods which have already been hit? To my knowledge, this only happens when units are standng in fire (keeping in mind that I can hardly remember which ammo type is which), so if they aren't already standing in fire, that leaves me most confused...

[Zombie]

Ok, let me try to clear things up for you a bit. First, I did a little "tweaking" to a game file this morning. I raised a Quarterpod off the ground, then shot an Incendiary round where the Quarterpod stood. Then I lowered the Quarterpod into the fire and checked the health of each one during that same round. Result: no damage inflicted. I let a round pass and checked the health again. Result: no damage inflicted.

 

Now, I reloaded the modified game where the Quarterpods were standing in fire. I shot an Incendiary round at one of the aliens and checked the health of it and the rest. Result: the Quarterpod that I shot at got a health drop, while those just standing in fire still had their full health. I shot a different Quarterpod with an incendiary round, then checked the health stats again. Result: the second alien shot was damaged, the first one (which was already shot) got an extra drop in health, while the remaining two Quarterpods were undamaged. So, a unit has to be damaged by fire before another shot somewhere else will add to the health drop.

 

Alright, I now took those two damaged Quarterpods and shot an Incendiary round at the second one again. I then recorded the health loss to see if the drop was random. Results:

                 Health b-4     Health After     Health Drop
Quarterpod#1        186              179              7
Quarterpod#2        190              184              6

Yes health drops to units already damaged by fire get a random reduction in health. However, I am unsure what the min, max, average and range is for this type of health drop (as opposed to a sequential gathering where the Min is 0, Max is 10 and range is 11). This drop may correlate or (as I'm guessing) it may not.

 

So if you do feel up to the task, try and modify your program to sequentially gather the health of each alien as they are shot at, not after you abort. This way I can maintain some sort of continuity between the trials. I hope this explains things! Again, there is no rush on this, as I am busy gathering those other HE trials against the Quarterpod!

[Bomb Bloke]

Well, I'm willing to bet that I can't gather the stats one unit at a time. I have to do it between games, not during them.

 

If I were you, I'd do your HE tests, but give one unit incendary rounds instead! That way, you can do four shots instead of one, and the fire bug won't effect anything, as only one gun is making fire.

 

Then continue doing other weapon tests, also bringing along incendary rounds, and eventually you'll get enough samples. If you want to have another unit/quarterpod added especially towards that aim, I'm sure NKF could build something up... *hopeful look at NKF*

[Zombie]

If I were you, I'd do your HE tests, but give one unit incendary rounds instead! That way, you can do four shots instead of one, and the fire bug won't effect anything, as only one gun is making fire.

That's a very good point, Bomb Bloke. It might take a little longer to finish one trial, but after 4 trials the Incendiary one is finished too. That's like you buy 4 and get one free! I'll do that then. (NKF, no need to re-modify the game to add an extra Quarterpod. I have enough trials left to make it work).

 

----------

 

If you all remember, the last test I finished was the high explosive test where the Quarterpod was on the ground and the soldier was also on the ground. My results were a little confusing because I figured that the ground may have reflected the shockwave and added extra damage. So what I did was raise the Quarterpod and the soldier off the ground and did another 1000 trials. Here are the results (I'll relist the ground values to compare):

[Bomb Bloke]

So, lemme get this straight, the modifier is 80% when it's in the air, 64% on the ground. But, Sectopods can't fly (unless we hack the save files up). So, just how accurate does that make the OSG?

[Zombie]

Let's see. How can I explain this? First, High Explosives are Area Effect Weapons. The blast affects an area, instead of a single tile or unit. Also, the blast is pseudo-3D in nature. That means that anything near the target can potentially change the overall damage inflicted. The ground obviously plays a role in a HE explosion, so to eliminate this variable, you have to lift the unit off the ground. Since a target in the air has nothing around it but air, the damage is unmodified by surrounding objects or the ground.

 

Secondly, as you correctly point out, Sectopods cannot fly. Technically. However, if you get one in a 2x2 lift somewhere, standing on Level 1, that is almost the same as flying since there is no "ground" beneath the Sectopods feet. This is why I did these extra trials, because of the lift factor.

 

Thirdly, the OSG gives very accurate data, but it sometimes leaves out certain information which may help to understand the problem better. The 80% damage against Sectopods from high explosives is accurate only when there is nothing above or below the target. Put the ground variable in there, and it plays a role, reducing the damage an average of 16%.

 

It's not that the OSG is wrong, the info it does give is correct. However, the information it neglects to mention sometimes is as important as the stuff it shows. I don't blame you for being confused. But since I deal with the problem every day, formulating a solution is practically intuitive!

[Zombie]

Don't worry everyone. Just because I am working on other projects in X-COM right now, doesn't mean I am neglecting the damage modifier tests! Quite the contrary. I just completed testing HE ammo against the Quarterpod in the air (Level 1), and the soldier standing on the ground (Level 0).

 

I should probably mention how I am going to abbreviate the various tests in one table to make things more readable. For the units, Q = Quarterpod and S = Soldier. Now for the level where each of those units are situated, L0 = Level 0 (or standing on the ground), L1 = Level 1 (or 1 tile up in the air), L2 = Level 2 (or 2 tiles up in the air). If I abbreviate a test as "Q-L0, S-L0", that means the Quarterpod is on the ground and the soldier is also on the ground. Here is my most recent test at the very right of the other ones:

               Quarterpod vs. HE ammo

           Q-L0, S-L0    Q-L1, S-L1    Q-L1, S-L0
            Damage=50     Damage=50     Damage=50
Minimum:        16           20            20 
Maximum:        48           60            60
Range:          33           41            41
Median:         32           39            40
Mode:           32           20            52
Ant. Ave:       32           40            40
Act. Ave:     31.59        39.23         39.53

In the last 2 tests, the Quarterpod was in the air, but the soldier switched orientations, from the air, to the ground. This was done to see if there was any difference in damage inflicted due to where the shot was coming from. The game must consider the last two scenarios exactly the same, because my results look almost identical. The only major difference was the Mode, but because the probability of inflicting any damage number is random, the Mode will also be random.

 

Right now, I am starting work on the scenario where the Quarterpod is on the ground and the soldier is in the air (Q-L0, S-L1). I am expecting the results to mirror my past two trials, but you never know. By the way, by doing these HE tests first on orientation, the later tests I can pick and choose to do the trials that are different, rather than repeating the same boring results. See, all the 1x1 aliens will have the same effect as the Quarterpod, it's just the damage modifier which would change.

 

I am also working on finishing a couple of Incendiary trials. I took a sampling a while ago of around 100 values where the Quarterpod is standing on the ground, and so is the soldier. I also have 500 values where the Quarterpod is in the air, and the soldier is on the ground. From the preliminary results, it looks like these two trials are exactly the same. I'll continue work on these, as the other HE tests with a Quarterpod continue!

 

- Zombie

[NKF]

Bumpity bump, we can't be forgetting this thread too quickly now can we?

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

No, we can't! Actually, I am finishing up the trial for the Quarterpod in the air and the soldier on the ground using Incendiary ammo. At the moment, I have 750 shots completed. (I didn't want to start a new HE test until I crank out at least one IN trial.)

 

At this point in time, Incendiary damage against a unit (Quarterpod) standing on the ground or in the air is exactly the same. Therefore, the ground does not play a role in the damage inflicted to a unit. Compare that to HE shells which do. Incendiary ammo is an entirely different creature than High Explosives.

 

As I've said before, the Incendiary results for the Quarterpod are really going to knock your socks off. Trust me. It's nothing even close to what I expected!

[Bomb Bloke]

Do you think it's ground or height that effects HE damage?

 

For example, do the results change again if you raise the quarterpods another level? If not, what if you raise them a level and then put a floor under them?

[Zombie]

It's the ground that affects the damage numbers. Well, it's anything under an aliens feet that changes the HE damage. Height plays no factor. If the target is completely surrounded by air, it will take damage equal to the results of my past two HE tests. However, if there is something under an aliens feet (such as the ground or a floor) it will take damage equal to the results of my first HE scenario.

[Zombie]

As promised, I completed my tests with the Quarterpod and Incendiary rounds modified to do 50 (average) for damage. This trial took much longer than rest simply because I only gathered 250 values from my previous HE test using BB's logging program, and gathered the final 750 one-at-a-time (again using BB's logger). Why? Well, I really wanted to get an "air" trial in for the Quarterpod because that would give a better understanding between the two different ammo types. Therefore, for this trial, the Quarterpod was in the air (Level 1) and the soldier firing the Incendiary rounds was on the ground (Level 0).

 

Theoretically, if an Incendiary round was modified to do 50 for damage, and the Quarterpod had a susceptibility to IN of 100%, it should mean the following:

1) The Min should = 0.

2) The Anticipated Average should = 50.

3) The Actual Average should be around 50.

4) The Max should = 100.

5) The range should = 101.

 

As you may have guessed, my results are not even close to what was expected:

 

 Quarterpod (L1) vs. Incendiary ammunition (fired from L0).
 

[NKF]

Are your tests for initial impact damage only, or have you included the universal fire damage caused by incendiary impact damage to units standing in fire? I think we're just expecting incendiary effects to behave like a normal area effect weapon. I once thought that the strength of an incendiary effect only determines the spread of the flames rather than the damage.

 

Hmm. Do you think I should put in a new weapon that does 100 incendiary damage?

 

In any case, it looks like I'll need to rethink my weapon set anyway. Right-o, will have to add stun bombs. Would you mind if I cut down on the clutter of weapons if I made it so that the heavy plasma could load a stun bomb and an incendiary rocket? Would mean a lot more item swapping, but less weapons to muddle with. Note, I'm going to make the firing cost of the laser pistol a bit more expensive. The infinite ammo puts the game into an infinite loop if you get into a reaction firing contest with an alien with armour that cannot be penetrated (such as the proper sectopod by the ramp).

 

The Reaper test games are practically ready. There's just one more tweak to the Reaper stats that needs to be done in order it to be ready to be uploaded. Only problem is, I've forgotten what it was. Health I think...

 

I really wanted to start off with the large units because they're much more complicated to set up than ordinary sized units. With the difficult units aside, we can get on to the easier ones.

 

edit:

 

Right, done it. Have made several changes.

 

https://www.geocities.com/nkfarma/fun/testgames.html

 

Get the new obdata.dat, as HP's now load incendiary rockets (100 incendiary damage), stun bombs (50 stun). The shots will still look like plasma bolts, but the effects will be fine. I've updated the sectopod savegames to include these as well. Oh, and the reapers are up now.

 

Note: Go easy on the incendiary rockets. In the CE, I find that if you use too much fire that after a while all the large text gets corrupted. The game's fine. Just a memory overflow.

 

edit: edit:

 

Just thought I'd like to add that I gave the incendiary rockets a few test runs. From what I've noticed, they do minimal damage to reaper quarterlings on the initial impact (before the ground is blanketed in fire). Very low damage indeed. But the damage appeared to pick up a bit once the reaper was on fire. (on a related note, quarterlings that get set on fire appear to set fire to the whole unit. Check the remaining 3 quarters!)

 

- NKF

[Bomb Bloke]

Modifying my program is very, very simple. I'd've done it earlier if I wasn't so lazy.

 

Anyway, call me inattentive, but what was the original reason for using quarterpods?

[NKF]

Its for area effect testing. Just to get accurate readings, we only want to see the effects of area effect damage on one quarter rather than all the quarters.

 

- NKF