Smoke Grenades Revisited

[Zombie]

Recently, NKF posted a link to his website, which had some test games ready for downloading. One of them was smoke grenades. Here is a link if you do not have a saved game to play around with: NKF's smoke grenade test game

 

When I was a newbie to X-COM, I never used smoke grenades. Why? Well, there were a few reasons. First, I guess I just did not know how to use them strategically. "Where should I throw one"?, "When should I throw one"?, and "Why should I throw one"? were the three questions that always seemed to pop up for me. Second, when I did use one, the smoke appeared to help the aliens out as much as it helped my troops. Third, using smoke grenades for prolonged periods of a mission really take a toll on your unarmored soldiers. Standing in smoke will eventually stun a soldier. Even using smoke as an emergency "stun weapon" had little value; I had to dump quite a few smoke grenades on a target to get it to fall over. It's no wonder why so many people do not use them!

 

When NKF invited anyone to test out smoke grenades in his experimental saved game, I was skeptical. On a whim, I downloaded the game. I thought, "It should be interesting, and at least a good time waster". I never got around to playing the game, until now. Boy was I surprised! Maybe I was too young, too stupid, too ignorant, or too hasty to judge in my early playing days. Now, when I used smoke grenades, things were different.

 

If anyone is doubtful that smoke grenades actually work, first open your mind to new ideas. Second, test them out in NKF's game, or read how others use them in the previous smoke grenade thread: Smoke Grenade, Does any one use them?.

 

Some interesting facts about smoke grenades:

1) Smoke from a smoke grenade initially affects a 13x13-diameter area.

2) Smoke lingers for approximately 15 rounds, after that everything is back to normal.

3) Smoke spreads. Rate to be determined.

4) Peering into smoke is harder than peering out.

5) Smoke does help aliens out, but only if you throw them incorrectly/unwisely.

 

So, does anyone have some helpful tips/hints/strategies that you could share? I would be interested to see anything along these lines!

[Hobbes]

One thing I noticied is that some smoke grenades don't release any smoke when they go off. I read somewhere in a forum that this is due to limitations on the tactical engine (there can be only a certain number of smoke on the battlefield). Can anyone confirm that?

 

I think smoke can be most useful if you can determine what the path of the aliens and deploy smoke grenades to make an invisible barrier between the location of your soldiers and the alien patrols. However, if the AI decides to move the alien towards your soldiers and through the smoke cloud then they become almost useless. As an example

 

A XXXX

XXXX

XXXX B

C

 

A is the alien, B a soldier, C the alien's destination, Xs the smoke.

If the alien moves to C, then smoke should get your men under cover, but if the AI decides to move it close to B, so much for the cover.

[FullAuto]

That's right, Hobbes. You can only have so much smoke at one time on the battlescape, same as you can only have so much fire.

I find smoke grenades are most useful when you dump them right next to your soldiers, as previously noted, it's easier to see out than it is to see in.

[Hobbes]

Yeah, that would then be something to watch out when using smokes. The grenade might go off with no smoke and your soldier will be left on the open without any cover.

[FullAuto]

To be fair, you can have quite a lot of smoke. Just move slowly and carefully, using each grenade as much as you can before the smoke dissipates.

[Space Voyager]

Smoke grenades are most usefull when you're exiting the Skyranger. Otherwise your man can take a step and wham! he's rolling...

 

Similar for opening the doors of alien craft. I didn't experimetn much with this, but I guess it could proove usefull to smoke the entrance before opening the door.

[Maugan Ra]

Doesn't help much on smaller ufos...

[Zombie]

The one thing that always confused me when playing a mission in X-COM was why smoke or fire did not form sometimes. For example: when there are a lot of fires raging on the map, and you shoot off an incendiary round, the fire will not form. This is because there is a limit on how many tiles can be ablaze during a round. The game is unable to keep track of any new fires beyond this limit and therefore only shows what is burning at the limit. It is the same for smoke.

 

It becomes really apparent with the Playstation version of this game. Just before you reach the fire limit, the game gets laggy and slows down considerably. The processor is being tested to the limit in this case. Displaying more fire becomes extremely difficult when you are taxing the processor to the max to begin with. Now when you shoot off an incendiary round, it explodes sluggishly but does not form any fire. I call these "duds". I am unsure if incendiary rounds fired after the limit actually cause damage, or if they just explode and don't create fire.

 

I found smoke to be the most useful when you have to cross large open fields. Just move your men forward into the smoke cloud a few tiles each round, leaving enough time for reaction fire just in case an alien enters the cloud with you. Have a few men following behind those in the smoke cloud but at the perimeter. If you spot an alien with your men in the smoke, use the snipers around the perimeter to take some shots.

 

The best strategy when crossing a large field is to use both smoke and proxy grenades. Throw a primed proximity grenade a few tiles past where the smoke cloud will end. This prevents the aliens from entering the smoke cloud and surprising your soldiers. Just be careful when you get to the perimeter, you might have to side step past the proxy grenade to keep it from going off!

[FullAuto]

I am unsure if incendiary rounds fired after the limit actually cause damage, or if they just explode and don't create fire.

 

They only cause damage to the unit they hit directly. The explosion, as far as I know, doesn't cause any damage.

[Zombie]

That's what I thought. A long time ago, during an especially harrowing terror mission with Sectoids, I used incendiary rounds with limited success. This probably could be contributed to my soldiers being rookies and having terrible firing accuracy. When I was at the limit for the amount of fire that could be displayed, I came face-to-face with a menacing looking Sectoid Soldier.

 

The only weapon my soldier had was an Auto Cannon with incendiary rounds. I was hesitant to use the ammunition if it wouldn't do anything. Anyhow, I shot the Sectoid with some snap shots of incendiary ammunition and checked it's stats with a Mind Probe to see if the health/armor was reduced. It was, but I was unsure if the Sectoid was previously scorched in the gigantic firestorm that swept the map! Now that I think back a little bit, the Sectoid appeared from inside a brick building, so obviously it couldn't have been burnt. Thanks for refreshing my memory, FullAuto!

[FullAuto]

No problem. It's a good thing it doesn't happen to HE rounds as well.

[Strong Bob]

I've heard that smoke grenades can be used to douse fires. Is it true? I've never had the opportunity to try.

[FullAuto]

I don't know.....it would work in reality if the smoke were thick enough, it would starve the fire of oxygen. Hmm. I'll go and see.

 

Later: Nope, incendiary ammo still burns fine in the middle of a smoke cloud.

[NKF]

On the bright side, excessive smoke will stop fire from forming on the ground (although I cannot guarantee it'll stop the fire that sticks to you from forming). And vice versa - too much fire, and smoke will not be able to be generated.

 

This is because fire and smoke both share the same table.

 

This will not stop the impact damage of an incendiary round, however.

 

I have noticed that incendiary rounds are weird in general. Try this, find two targets. Fire at one target with an incendiary round. Then switch to the other target and keep firing incendiary rounds at this unit.

 

The funny thing is, when I try this, it's the first unit that eventually dies from the barrage of incendiary shells.

 

- NKF

[Crazy Photon]

Yea, I noticed that many times on terror missions, sometimes a unit that was OUTSIDE the fire radius of the burst died (when I was shooting at another target)

[Zombie]

One time I led my unarmored assault team through a jungle map to kill off a Terror Ship infested with Floaters and Reapers. Since I had the Hyperwave Decoder working at my base, I knew what aliens to expect. Need I say it? I brought along my dependable incendiary weapons as a special gift for the Reapers! Imagine this scenario: the ground near the Skyranger ramp was a raging fire. I couldn't really send my unarmored troops through this mess to get to the UFO; they'd get fried.

 

I figured that maybe smoke would smother the fire and allow safe passage for my soldiers. No such luck. In fact, it made matters worse. Instead of dealing with just some 3rd degree burns, my soldiers had to worry about going unconscious from smoke inhalation too. Not good! How about high explosives? Wouldn't they destroy the fuel the fire feeds upon? I tried this also. If the fire is already raging, and you use explosives against it, the only thing it does is to reduce the time the fire lasts. (Like maybe a few rounds). It does not extinguish the fire immediately.

 

One good way to keep fire from lasting too long (like maybe 1 or 2 rounds) is to use high explosives first to clear the ground of potentially flammable material. When the ground looks brown and black, you can now dispense the fire. On areas that were previously completely scorched, the fire lasts about one round. The only sure way of preventing a fire from spreading is to set up a "fire line" around it. Throw some grenades around the perimeter of the flames to clear the ground. Now the fire is contained in a "kill zone". Any aliens caught trying to walk through this mess come out "well done" on a meat thermometer!

 

Always fun!

[Zombie]

MAJOR REVISION

 

I just found out that my saved games were corrupted somehow. Let's just say that it had to do with a stack of floppies, a large magnet and a kid. You get the picture now? Arrgh! What confused me was that the games still loaded!

 

Ok, smoke grenades WILL extinguish fires! I shot an incendiary rocket at the ground and then threw down a smoke grenade (primed for 0 rounds) smack dab in the middle and hit next turn. Poof! The flames were completely smothered! Say one of your soldiers catches fire (called a unit fire). Smoke will also put the fire out in a jiffy!

 

High explosives will not stifle flames. They also do not seem to shorten the time a blaze remains lit.

 

I did some preliminary tests on how large a fire forms from each type of incendiary ammunition. The initial size of the blaze is not a perfect square, it resembles more of a square with the ends nipped off.

Ammunition            Affected Area
  AC - I                1 3 5 3 1 
  HC - I              1 5 5 7 5 5 1
  RL - I            1 7 7 7 9 7 7 7 1

So the Auto Cannon - Incendiary round will look like this:

   X  
  XXX
 XXXXX
  XXX
   X

 

The area affected by the blast was the same for any surface.

 

For tiles with dirt, weeds, or short grass, the original area affected by fire burnt for three rounds. In other words, this is an area with a mediocre flammability rating. By the looks of things, severly scorched areas, snow or UFO roofs/floors remain lit for two rounds (a low flammability rating). The more flammable the tile, the longer the fire will burn. I would expect wheat fields to remain lit for maybe 4 or 5 rounds.

 

Interesting note: the majority of smoke generated from a fire accumulates 1 level above the burn zone. There is also residual smoke around the perimeter of the area on fire.

 

It appears that the game will not allow smoke and fire to occupy the same area. If a fire is burning in a tile, and you introduce smoke there, the fire is exchanged for smoke. The reverse also seems to be true. If an area has smoke in it and you introduce fire, the smoke will be replaced by fire.

[Bomb Bloke]

You're save games were 'edited' by a magnet?!

 

Can I have copies?

[Jman4117]

one in a trillion or so chance? O.o

[Strong Bob]

The resident Kenny of XCAS would go nuts at the thought.

[Zombie]

I just spent a little more time testing out NKF's smoke grenade saved game. For those of you unfamiliar with it, a Sectoid soldier is "rooted" to one spot at the end of a partially enclosed field, while some X-COM agents are stationed around one side with lots of smoke grenades. One X-COM soldier faces the Sectoid and is 20 tiles away. The object is to throw a smoke grenade at varying distances, walk your soldier closer, and find out who sees who first through the cloud. If your soldier sees the alien first, he gets a chance to do something, while if the Sectoid spots your soldier first, the Sectoid gets to reaction fire his laser pistol.

 

One important fact to remember is that X-COM agents can only see an alien (with full daylight) if there is a 19 tile or less separation between them.

 

So what I did was throw the smoke grenade at the aliens' feet, and after the explosion, moved my soldier closer until I saw the alien, or the alien saw me (reaction fire). I then recorded the results, reloaded the game, and threw the primed smoke grenade 1 tile from the alien. And on, and on, and on until smoke no longer played a factor. I decided to record the results as the distance the alien was from ground zero, and the maximum distance your soldier could see the Sectoid.

 

Distance Alien is			  Max Distance your 
from Ground Zero			  Soldier can see him
	 0 (at ground zero)			4 *
	 1							 4
	 2							 4
	 3							 5
	 4							 5
	 5							 4
	 6							 4 *
	 7							 5
	 8							 5
	 9							 7
	10							 7
	11							 8
	12							 9
	13							 9
	14							10
	15							10
	16							12
	17							11
	18							13
	19							13
	20 (soldier is here)		  14
	21							15
	22							16
	23							17
	24							17
	25							18
	26							19

* Note: Alien will reaction fire with a 5 tile separation, but your soldier will not be able to see him yet. 
When you move 1 tile closer (or a 4 tile separation), your soldier will then see alien.

 

Let me condense the results somewhat. When the Sectoid is at ground zero of a smoke grenade blast or also 6 tiles away, the alien can see your soldier first and gets a chance for reaction fire. This distance of 7 tiles is what I call the 'danger zone'. What this means is that if smoke is closer to an alien, it helps him out. I think we all knew this before, but it is nice to know the results check out!

 

-------

 

NKF: Do you think you could modify your smoke grenade scenario somewhat for me? It's nothing significant, just move the Sectoid about 7 tiles away from the edge of the map. Then I could check to see what happens when the smoke is behind the alien (signifying a negative value for the distance from ground zero). It would be much appreciated!

[NKF]

Seven tiles further along? Sure, expect it to be updated soon. I'll move the test subject back that many tiles as well, and extend the path (I'd intended to use it as a means of measurement).

 

It's ready. Just check my test game page. I put it up as a new file.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

I'll move the test subject back that many tiles as well, and extend the path (I'd intended to use it as a means of measurement).

That's exactly what I was using the flower tiles next to the path for - a means of quick measurement. That is a whole lot easier than counting each tile separately without a reference.

 

Thanks a bunch, NKF! I am downloading the new game as I write this!

[Zombie]

Ok, thanks to NKF's quick reactions, I was able to complete my smoke grenade table today. Just remember, this table is for when you move your soldier around in or near smoke. This data is offensive in nature because the alien is static and you move around during X-COM's round, which initiates the alien to reaction fire.

 

Distance Alien is			  Max Distance your 
from Ground Zero			  Soldier can see him
	-7 (alien not in smoke)	   19 * Alien will Rx fire at 19
	-6							17 * Alien will Rx fire at 19
	-5							13 * Alien will Rx fire at 15
	-4							10 * Alien will Rx fire at 11
	-3							12 * Alien will Rx fire at 13
	-2							 8 * Alien will Rx fire at 9
	-1							 4
	 0 (alien stands here)		 4 * Alien will Rx fire at 5
	 1							 4
	 2							 4
	 3							 5
	 4							 5
	 5							 4
	 6							 4 * Alien will Rx fire at 5
	 7							 5
	 8							 5
	 9							 7
	10							 7
	11							 8
	12							 9
	13							 9
	14							10
	15							10
	16							12
	17							11
	18							13
	19							13
	20 (soldier is here)		  14
	21							15
	22							16
	23							17
	24							17
	25							18
	26							19

Interesting results. It proves that the alien is most deadly when it is inside the smoke cloud. It also shows that X-COM soldiers get some help from smoke when it is either right on top of the soldier, or between the soldier and the alien. If your soldier would remain in the smoke cloud and static during the aliens' turn, X-COM automatically gains the upper hand. This is because the alien will most likely fail the reaction test when it moves into the cloud to investigate. Cool! You learn something new about X-COM every day!

[Zombie]

One of the last tests for smoke grenades... I promise! As most of us know, smoke spreads. But at what rate? And how fast does it reduce in size? How long is the smoke cloud effective? Hopefully these questions will be answered by this post.

 

What I did was detonate a smoke grenade. Then I determined the width and length by counting the number of tiles that smoke occupied. I also observed what the cloud looked like. Now I clicked next round and did this all over again until the smoke completely disappeared. Here are the results:

Round          Area          Observations
-----          ----          ------------
Initial        13x13         Symmetrical
  1            15x15         Symmetrical
  2            17x17         Symmetrical
  3            19x19         Symmetrical
  4            21x21         Partially symmetrical
  5            21x21         Partially symmetrical
  6            19x19         Some thinning at corners
  7            19x19         More thinning between corners
  8            19x19         More thinning between corners
  9            17x17         More thinning between corners
 10            15x15         Starts to look like + sign
 11            13x13         Looks more like + sign
 12            12x12         Some thin spots forming
 13            10x10         More thin spots form
 14             9x9          Spotty smoke, looks like lace
 15             0x0          Smoke gone

It appears that smoke expands for around 6 rounds, then it starts to thin out between the arms of a + sign. After about 10 rounds, smoke mainly lingers near the arms, but it still could be useful if the alien has to look through it. After 12 rounds, the smoke is getting pretty thin and spotty in some areas. When you get to 14 rounds after the initial explosion, the smoke is very spotty and thin - almost like lace. Fifteen rounds after the smoke grenade was detonated, it disappears.

 

So if an alien is standing in-line where a smoke grenade goes off, you might be able to effectively conceal a soldiers' movement for perhaps 8 or so rounds. After that, you better start to pull back, or set off another smoke grenade!