Psi? Who Has It?

[kai]

I may be a little confused about psi so there are a few things i'd like to check:

 

Sectoids: They do have psionic abilities, however, these are limited to leaders and commanders

 

Ethereals: Every one, from soldier to commander has powerfull abilities

 

I've used the mind probe on some of them and i've found that they tend to have good skill, at least in the 50 range but their psi strength is in the same area

[FullAuto]

That's correct, yes.

[Zombie]

You got it. I am just going to add some more info here. The Sectoid Leader and Commander, as well as the Ethereal Soldier, Leader and Commander are the only aliens who have psi skill. If a unit (X-COM or alien) has psionic skill of 1 or more, it can use it's psionic strength to mind control or panic via telepathy (for the aliens), or via a Psi-Amp (for X-COM soldiers, or aliens under mind control). I like tagging aliens that can use psi to attack as "Active psi". The difficulty level you are playing on determines how much psi skill or strength an alien has. I'll list them below:

 

[Bomb Bloke]

So... I take it it is possible to gain mental control over the robots?

[Zombie]

Sure! In fact, any alien in the game can be mind controlled. The tricky part is to get your soldier's psi abilities up to a certain level to be effective.

 

The robots (Sectopod or Cyberdisc) have a psionic strength of 100 and a psionic skill of 0. Their defence against mind control (or MCD) is found by this equation:

MCD = [ (psi str) + (psi skl/5) ] * 30

MCD = [100 + 0] *30

MCD = 3000

So your soldiers would need to have a psionic combat strength (or PCS) of at least 3001 to stand a chance. (PCS is found by multiplying a soldier's psi str and psi skl together).

 

Assuming you could get a soldier to 255 for psi skill, the minimum psi strength needed to control the robot would be only 12! (12*255=3060) Say your soldier has a psi strength of 100. The minimum psi skill needed would be 31! (31*100=3100) A psi skill of 31 is pretty easy to get after a couple months of psi training, or even one month in the psi lab plus some on-the-job training during that month. Just goes to show that a soldier having a psi strength of 100 and a psi skill of at least 31 is pretty important - he can successfully mind control any alien in the game!

 

The problem with the robots (and the Reaper) is that they are a 2x2 aliens (or take up 4 tiles). Why is this a big deal? Well, you have to control all 4 parts of the alien for the game to consider it fully under X-COM's control. If you were only able to MC 3/4 of the alien during your round, the fourth part could still attack your soldiers during the alien's round.

 

Reapers are easy enough to get rid of - I just mind control part 1, move alien away from your soldier until its TU are exhausted, mind control part 2, move the Reaper still farther away, MC part 3, etc, etc, etc. Now, when the aliens turn comes, the Reaper is so far from your soldiers that it cannot make its way back to do any harm. Then just kill at will when it comes back into sight. I also implement this successive mind control idea to turn the Reaper into a 62*4 TU scout (or 248 Time Units on beginner). Use it to spot an alien, MC that alien, then search for more.

 

The robots have a major shortcoming if you use them as scouts. They have an on-board pseudo-integrated weapons system that can be used by any part. If you MC part 1 of a Sectopod and then move it somewhere, part 2, 3 or even 4 are still alien and if they "see" part one they might attack it because it is under X-COM's control. If one part is killed, the other parts are also considered killed and therefore the unit cannot be used anymore.

 

The Cyberdisc is bad enough to begin with, but when you try using it as a 62*4 TU scout and the alien part shoots the X-COM part(s), the auto-destruct feature takes over and causes immense damage to aliens or X-COM units standing too close. My solution? MC part one of the Cyberdisc, raise it one level so that it is on level 1, then target the Cyberdisc gun on part 2, 3 or 4, and shoot. When it detonates, the explosion is limited to level 1, protecting the artifacts, aliens or X-COM units on level 0. As an added bonus, you can recover the Cyberdisc corpse (when it is killed on level 0, the resulting shock wave reflects off the ground, destroying the corpse).

 

This is probably more than you really wanted to know!

[Blehm 98]

Or you could have it go up to its masters and then shoot itself

[bevan]

ive tried using Psi on the robots, (Sectopod/Cyberdisc) it isnt really effective as a weapon against the aliens as its reaction fire usually kills itself (being only able to MC one block of it at a time). However the cyberdiscs are funny when the reaction fire forces itself to detonate and kill aliens around it.

[Bomb Bloke]

Incedently, in my experiments, I found that if you were to psi random parts of a 2x2 unit, you'd get single parts of it - however, if you just psi the top most corner (presuming north is the top right corner of your screen, the tile I am talking about would be the north west one), then you get the entire unit in one go.

 

Catch is, that's from memory. It might only apply to one of the games (UFO/TFTD) as opposed to both.

[NKF]

In UFO, it's individual bits. In TFTD, it's clockwise from the top-left corner. You get the full unit by controlling the top-left, 3 quarters by controlling the top-right, half for the lower right and only one quarter with the lower left.

 

They must've decided that the easiest way to mind control a large unit fully was to mind control the main bit, and then automatically take the next few units that belong to it in order. Alas, the programmers forgot that you can select any of the four sections, meaning the first few quarters are ignored.

 

Kind of messes up the game a bit because you can sometimes gain permanent partial control of a terror unit that's somewhere else on the map.

 

This little workaround actually makes things worse for TFTD. Pity.

 

- NKF

[Zeno]

A long time ago, I posted some of my "findings" about psionic aliens, and how to minimize their destructive mind-warping ways. Among my suggestions, I stated that mind-controlled soldiers rarely pick up dropped weapons. I also stated that it had happened, once.

 

I'm eating my words now, as I haven't ever had that experience again. I believe I may have "observed" something falsely (thinking the soldier had dropped the weapon, when he actually hadn't). I tend to play most computer games late at night, well after working and socializing hours.

 

I also reported that mind-controlled soldiers never throw "primed" grenades, high explosives, proximity mines, etc. So, it seemed relatively safe to prime everything while in the dropship, place them in areas other than the hands, and then exit.

 

Again, I must admit my error. I have had mind-controlled soldiers throw "primed" grenades. They seem to only throw grenades that have counted all the way down to "0", though (so it is theoretically safe to carry primed grenades that haven't counted down to zero yet).

 

However, the "prime first, then exit" method works remarkably well for me. First, mind controlled soldiers very, very rarely throw primed grenades. Second, if the primed grenades are set higher than zero, then they can't be used to cause immediate damage.

 

My soldiers prime grenades for high numbers before exiting the dropship. They prime them in such a way that they have one grenade reach "1" every turn. This turns a grenade-thrower into a one-man-destructive-force for a few turns (until all grenades are thrown), and by using "1" instead of "0" it causes grenades to explode at the end of the alien's turn (providing strategic possibilities). And if the thrower is mind controlled, there is sufficient time to dispatch him before he causes any damage.

 

I really, really like to use grenades of all varieties throughout the game. They are highly effective from the beginning, cheap to buy, more accurate than firing cartridge-loaded weapons, and faster than most weapons (faster after they are primed, that is). They offer more strategic options, as you have a guaranteed shot on the alien's turn (instead of relying on reaction fire). They are 2-dimensional explosions, which provides some degree of control in tight situations. After they are primed, you don't have to bother dropping them every turn to prevent mind-controlled soldiers from using them. And, panicking soldiers can't use them, either (though they will drop them if they're in their hands).

 

Aliens with Mind-Control capability are exceedingly tough to deal with, until you have the ability to check your soldiers' psi strength. But, they are beatable. You just must move more slowly, and take more precautions.

 

If you're feeling masochistic, try editing all the aliens so that they ALL have some level of psi skill. It will improve your tactics very quickly.

 

--Zeno

[Zombie]

Zeno: Did you report the "incorrect" data in the What the UFOPaedia didn't tell you, Trivia as collected by NKF and Zeno thread a while back? Or was it somewhere else?

 

You know, mind-controlled soldiers and actual aliens act identically - primarily because the computer controlls them. If the AI does one thing with an alien, you can bet that the AI will eventually impliment that same tactic with MC'd soldiers.

 

If an alien drops its weapons on the ground (either through X-COM mind control, or by naturally panicking), it can never pick them up again. That's a fact. The AI must have been programmed in such a way that items on the ground are not "visible" to the alien. Mind-controlled soldiers function the same way - the alien AI cannot "see" weapons and equipment on the ground. This is why having a Psi-prone soldier dropping his/her weapons on the ground is an effective strategy to keep the rest of your troops safe.

 

It's the same thing with grenades. Aliens always use grenades, so therefore MC'd soldiers can too. So you say that MC'd soldiers will not use grenades primed to go off in 1 or more turns, right? Seems logical enough. When was the last time you ever saw an alien throw a grenade primed to go off in 1 or more rounds? Never happens. Here is the game's AI taking over the strategy aspect again.

 

Your idea of using grenades primed for 1 or more turns against Psi-capable aliens has inspired me. I'll have to test this out more rigorously in the near future. You just might have stumbled upon the most effective strategy against Psi-capable aliens ever. (Well, besides using a Psi-Amp against the aliens - that's still the best)!

[Zeno]

Zombie, I saw a thread like that around here somewhere. I didn't actually participate in that, though. I think someone collected some information I and NKF and a few others wrote over a period of a few months. I, unfortunately, was locked in a Cydonian prison for the past year, and was unable to respond.

 

Using grenades against psionic aliens is effective, but it is DEFINITELY not foolproof. You are hereby warned! Every turn, the primer counts down by 1. That means on every turn (both yours and the aliens'). So, every time your soldiers start their turn, their grenades have counted down by 2.

 

Now, all is well and good if you have primed to a high number. But when your soldier is mind-controlled, panicked, or berzerk, she'll waste time. And if she wastes a lot of time, then eventually all the grenades she carries will count down to "0". And then you have a heavily-armed mobile bomb roaming around the field.

 

On the other hand, if your soldier is mind-controlled, panicked, or berzerk, you probably don't want her on your team. You can shoot her, and retrieve the grenades (if you have time) or let the body explode (if you don't). Be careful about retrieving grenades. You don't want to retrieve proximity grenades unless your soldier can fly in. And regardless, he must have time to pick up all the grenades on the ground. You can't tell which grenade is primed to which number when there's just a pile.

 

Another thing to keep in mind: If you've primed to a high number, then the grenade won't go off when you throw it. You must keep track of when and where each explosion will occur. That also means you don't have an effective "immediate" attack unless you know where an alien will be at the time of the explosion (which you probably know if you've worked with route maps at all). You must track all the grenades your soldiers carry very carefully, so you know which grenades are at "0" or "1" (these grenades can and should be thrown immediately, if the soldier is at any risk). You'll waste a lot of grenades this way (and many, many buildings and trees). Any primed grenades are lost from inventory, even if they're never thrown.

 

I like grenade tactics, but they are a double-edged vibroblade. (Do vibroblades have edges?) You'll want to keep your soldiers widely dispersed. But that's always a wise idea against Psionic aliens.

 

I do encourage you to practice grenade tactics. It's frustrating at first, but you'll get the hang of it. The biggest thing is tracking, and planning the number(s) to prime to. I'm still working on that. When I have some brilliant solution, I'll post it. Right now, I use a semi-automated recording and planning mechanism with variables for "time to detonation" and "planned deployment time". It isn't pretty.

 

--Zeno

[NKF]

The grenade relay helps a lot there. It takes more effort than simply having a pre-armed grenade, but it will mean that the person who needs to throw the grenade will not have to be the one to prime it (saving 50% of his or her TUs) and will only need to spend 8 TUs (I think it was 8) to pick the item up and then 1/4th of his or her TUs to throw it. Gives you plenty of time to pull back out of the aliens' vision.

 

Of course, the person who primes the grenade spends 3/4ths of his or her TUs for the arm and throw action, and everyone else in the chain gets to spend 8 + 1/4th of their TUs to toss it to the next. But the overall effect for the person who needs the grenade is good.

 

Well, it's not that good in every situation, but handy nonetheless if you absolutely need to get a grenade somewhere but don't have time to prime it.

 

But for battling psionics: My only advice is to have someone who is immune to psionic attacks be the grenade 'source' in any grenade relay chain. Either through actual observation in combat (If the soldier hasn't rolled on the floor and started to gibber about spiders after multiple mind blasts from a high ranking alien, it's probably okay to assume that they're okay), or through psi-lab screening.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

That is a good idea having one guy who is Psi-immune to be the dedicated carrier/primer/thrower of grenades for the group. Only problem is that nobody is immune to Panic Attacks! If that grenadier gets panicked by the aliens, he might drop his primed grenade. This might kill him and destroy the rest of the grenades he was carrying. The point may be to never carry a primed grenade during the aliens round if that person is a dedicated grenadier.

 

I use grenades all the time, but one thing I never knew about them was how their timer mechanism worked. Usually, I prime grenades at 0 to go off as soon as a soldier threw it. I never knew that the timer actually counted down while you were still holding it. But like you said Zeno, eventually the timer reaches 0 and then you have a potential kamikaze walking around. Nice to know that the grenade will never explode as long as a soldier is clutching one.

[Zeno]

NKF and Zombie,

 

I don't particularly favor the genade relay tactic. It is an excellent method in "desperation", but the TU cost is too high (in my opinion) for it to be an efficient standard tactic. I use it, but I don't prefer it.

 

The advantage of pre-primed grenades is that mind-controlled soldiers won't use them until they hit "0". The disadvantage is that you will often have grenades ready to use, but no target. I don't consider this a major disadvantage, as there is very often *something* to target. Trees and buildings are good targets.

 

The more significant disadvantage is if you have pre-primed grenades to high numbers, and don't have any you can use "now". If all the soldier's grenades are set higher than "1", then they are all useless for killing aliens you spot in the current turn.

 

Pre-primed grenades have another advantage, depending on your strategy. If you move out of the dropship slowly, then most of your soldiers sit there idly for several turns. They twiddle their thumbs and prepare reaction shots or drop their weapons to the floor. If you pre-prime grenades, it gives your soldiers something to do during their wait. Of course, once a soldier pre-primes, he then has a "must exit the dropship" time. You don't want to keep soldiers in the dropship with their buddies if they're holding grenades fused at "1" or "0". Oh, and in the dropship, don't pre-prime proximity grenades.

 

Hmmm. I guess it all depends on play style. The most annoying thing with pre-priming is tracking all the damned grenades every turn. However, I like the increased tactical options available to soldiers. I also like the anti-psionic advantage, as I play a modified XCOM game where psionic aliens are more common, and more potent.

 

--Zeno

[Zombie]

I do use the "grenade" relay sometimes, but not consistently for grenades. My soldiers are usually armed on the light-side, and don't carry everything they could possibly need for a certain situation. So if one of my soldiers on the front-lines uses up a grenade and needs another quick, the only option is to get it from the back-lines from a soldier who has one. The grenade relay is most helpful when the alien is in a tight position, such as between a building and the edge of the map. If you only have one soldier with just enough time units to get into throwing position, but not enough for priming, that grenade has to come from somewhere else.

 

Mostly, I use the "relay" tactic to get items up to the soldiers that need them. Say someone gets shot, and his "buddy" (or a shadow soldier) does not have a Medi-Kit on him to patch up the wounds. I simply throw one up to the "buddy" and let him play doctor until his friend is healed. Or a soldier gets up to the door of a UFO, but does not have a Motion Scanner to check if an alien is lurking inside. Here again, the Motion Scanner is thrown up to the guy who needs it to check behind the door. I also relay clips and Electro-Flares to guys that run out.

 

True, the TU cost may be high for the grenadier - 75% of his TU to prime and throw a grenade. But the grenadier should be in a relatively safe spot to begin with and protected by a soldier or two in case of alien surprises. Heck, the guy still has 25% of his TU left, more than enough for a reaction snap shot of a Laser Pistol or Laser Rifle! The guys involved in the relay have 75%-8 of their TU leftover, which is enough to fire an Aimed Shot with most light weapons in the game!