Microsoft suing NVidia over Vista crashes

[Azrael Strife]

Vista-capable lawsuit paints picture of buggy NVIDIA drivers

By Joel Hruska | Published: March 25, 2008 - 07:30PM CT

 

The 158-page bundle of internal Microsoft e-mails (PDF) that Judge Martha Pechman ordered unsealed as part of the ongoing "Vista Capable" lawsuit contains a great deal of interesting information. We've previously covered how the e-mails within the evidentiary document describe the changes Microsoft made to the definition of Vista Capable in order to improve Intel's quarterly earnings, but that's not the only gem within the document. According to Microsoft's own included documentation, the widespread reports of NVIDIA Vista driver issues were by no means exaggerated during Vista's first months.

 

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NVIDIA had significant problems when it came time to transition its shiny, new G80 architecture from Windows XP to Windows Vista. The company's first G80-compatible Vista driver ended up being delayed from December to the end of January, and even then was available only as a beta download. In this case, full compatibility and stability did not come quickly, and the Internet is scattered with reports detailing graphics driver issues when using G80 processors for the entirely of 2007. There was always a question, however, of whether or not the problems were really that bad, or if reporting bias was painting a more negative picture of the current situation than what was actually occurring.

 

Microsoft's data strongly indicates that the problems were real. Damon Poeter at CRN dug through the documentation to find that on page 47 of the PDF, NVIDIA drivers were identified as the cause of over 479,000 crashes, or just under 29 percent of all the crashes Microsoft logged. Microsoft's own drivers follow, at 17.9 percent, and the "Unknown" category takes third place at 17 percent. ATI is in fourth place (9.3 percent) and Intel in fifth place (8.83 percent).

 

 

The data points in the table cover an unspecified period in 2007, and Microsoft makes no attempt to break the aggregate data down into which device drivers, specifically, returned the highest number of crashes. If the number of failures were split by month and then graphed, we'd presumably see the number of NVIDIA driver failures per month decreasing as the company slowly brought its driver issues under control.

 

The data clearly indicates that NVIDIA had a driver problem, but it's impossible to quantify the scope of that problem given the numbers above. NVIDIA holds a greater percentage of the market than ATI, which means that there will inevitably be a higher percentage of NVIDIA driver crashes than ATI driver crashes; however, the degree to which such market share considerations have affected the results above is hard to determine in the absence of more data. There's also the matter of data collection; Microsoft's charts do not clarify if multiple crashes from a single system each counted as separate events. In theory, NVIDIA's proportion of total driver crashes could be inflated by a relatively small handful of systems with severe driver issues.

 

Driver problems are nothing new, particularly during the launch of a new OS, but the high incidence of NVIDIA driver crashes may have fueled public perception of Vista as an unstable and buggy OS. Microsoft has always billed DirectX 10 as a next-generation enthusiast feature, but in early 2007 the only DX10-capable parts were limping under the combined burden of buggy drivers and the increased computational demands of DX10 games. NVIDIA's early-to-midyear Vista issues may not have counted for much, given that few consumers actually purchase enthusiast-level graphics cards, but the company's problems were an additional drag on the perception of Vista at a time when Redmond could least afford it.

 

https://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080...ia-drivers.html

[Matri]

I'd have to agree with Microsoft on this one. nVidia's driver updates have slowed down considerably. The last update for my 7950 is dated December 20th...

 

Support has been dropping steadily since.

[Malakie]

Yeah!

 

For once I get to say THANK YOU Microsoft!

 

Not only am I one of those Nvidia users who has tried to get something working with these Nvidia cards (both personal systems and my business systems) but I am also one that could not get one bit of support from Nvidia no matter how I tried to contact them.

 

Then to top it off, I finally posted my disatisfaction on the Nvidia forums and was I surprised when I found myself suddenly censored.

 

I reposted a response about my messages being censored and suddenly then found myself banned completely from their site. They have a person named Brian that is the moderator and he even sent me a nasty message basically laughing about it etc etc.

 

So as a business person who purchased 10+ NVidia boards for my business, it was the final actions by this Brian person that changed forever my purchasing habits. I will NEVER purchase an Nvidia product again as long as there are competing products. I do not care if Nvidia has cards that are a few percentage points faster... I will not use nor buy from that company ever again.

 

They have attempted contact with me since then although my account remains banned.. I have declined to respond.... after all why should I when for almost an entire year they did not bother to do so?

 

The reason they have tried to contact me, and something I warned this Brian about with his little insults and messages on behalf of Nvidia, was what they were about to loose as a customer. I have a feeling they did not believe me at first but they do now. My accounts and purchases for the business and agency run an average of seven figure amounts in purchases of hardware.... which USED to include Nvidia mainboards and graphics cards.

 

Now I am sure they are wondering why one of the accounts is no longer purchasing from them or at the least are trying to find a way to get me to return as a customer.

 

I understand most users and customers may not be that large in purchasing... but you get enough users dumping your product together and suddenly those amounts you are loosing suddenly wake people up.

 

I am very happy to see Microsoft go with this. I would have liked to have done so myself, but as a small guy I do not have that kind of money to take a chance with in the courts. If Microsoft opened the suit to class action status, you can bet I would be there in a heartbeat!

 

Anyhow, that's my thoughts.

 

BTW, I had no choice but to replace the cards with a competing graphics card product... and I have had NO major problems at all since doing so. Night and day.

 

Malakie

[Kratos]

I am not an expert in this whole situation, but doesn't Nvidia have the right to do whatever the hell they want with their drivers? And who says it's not Vista's fault for being a poor OS to maintain?

[Kret]

I wouldn't consider it wise to "do whatever the hell they want with their drivers" if this includes alienating buyers from their products.

 

As for Vista being a "poor OS to maintain", if others have managed to keep their drivers from crashing bellow a given percentage, how come nVidia hasn't?

 

Whoever fault's it is, both Microsoft and nVidia are suffering from it as their products are being labeled to be buggy and should try to cooperate with each other to solve the issue. A lawsuit from Microsoft to nVidia won't help the consumers with their problems.

[Kratos]

I wouldn't consider it wise to "do whatever the hell they want with their drivers" if this includes alienating buyers from their products.

You misunderstood what I was saying. I meant "Micro$oft has no business in this affair.". Of course, Nvidia needs to get on the ball.

[Space Voyager]

I will NEVER purchase an Nvidia product again as long as there are competing products. I do not care if Nvidia has cards that are a few percentage points faster... I will not use nor buy from that company ever again.

I can certainly understand your feelings but isn't that a bit too much? I understand that you feel hurt but you'll also feel hurt when your computer will work slower just to spite nVidia...

[zaimoni]

I can certainly understand your feelings but isn't that a bit too much? I understand that you feel hurt but you'll also feel hurt when your computer will work slower just to spite nVidia...

It is not just a matter of hurt feelings.

 

While I would not have mentioned the volume of business that NVidia was about to lose (why argue from weakness?), when customer service is prioritized as very important this is perfectly rational.

 

Keep in mind that 5% slower on graphics is meaningful only for:

* cutting-edge video games

* AutoCAD

* Possibly scientific computing.

 

Otherwise, it is not material.

[Space Voyager]

True, but if you're not buying for any of these categories you can buy a card 90% slower and it will suffice.

 

But look at me talking - I never buy cutting edge hardware anyway. Too expensive, not at all price/performance effective.

[Kratos]

True, but if you're not buying for any of these categories you can buy a card 90% slower and it will suffice.

 

But look at me talking - I never buy cutting edge hardware anyway. Too expensive, not at all price/performance effective.

 

Keep in mind that 5% slower on graphics is meaningful only for:

* cutting-edge video games

* AutoCAD

* Possibly scientific computing.

I don't have cutting edge, but I know you can get pretty close to it for pretty cheap by building your own computer. Just buy the hardware separately and the 2nd or 3rd best of the product. When Nvidia came out with their 8900 GT 512mb video cards, they were $400 and I went for the $200 8800 GTS 512mb. https://tigerdirect.com is pretty good for finding low cost hardware. It works perfectly for Blender (3D design). Of course, I use Linux, so I have yet (or never should I say) to say anything about how well its performance is for Windows Vista.

 

@zaimoni: Not bad 8bit themed artwork going on with your avatar. Did you make it?

[Kernel]

I will NEVER purchase an Nvidia product again as long as there are competing products.

 

I said exactly the same thing about 6-8 years ago with ATI when they had really crappy drivers and they caused me no end of hassle. I switched to nVidia cards and now look at the turn-around. nVidia now have the bad drivers and ATI have probably some of the best around.

 

You need to be careful when saying you'll never buy something from one company just because of a bad experience.

You can never tell how good that comapny's future products will be, nor the ones of the company you currently buy from.

[Malakie]

I can certainly understand your feelings but isn't that a bit too much? I understand that you feel hurt but you'll also feel hurt when your computer will work slower just to spite nVidia...

 

 

Normally I would agree that my actions are "a bit much" but what I have been through in the last year with this ordeal, especially in development and support to my customers, has been a nightmare.

 

The two main reasons I finally had no choice were:

 

1) NO contact from Nvidia in regard to help or solutions to the problems. No contact AT ALL in almost a year.

 

2) Final straw, the actions and comments from thier rep named Brian when he personally attacked then started censoring my requests and comments for help finally culminating in me being banned from the site when I complained about HIS actions.

 

That kind of unprofessional behaviour finally did it for me. So long Nvidia. Since moving to other competing products, I have had no major issues at all with Vista, graphics, hardware, software or development.

 

True, but if you're not buying for any of these categories you can buy a card 90% slower and it will suffice.

 

But look at me talking - I never buy cutting edge hardware anyway. Too expensive, not at all price/performance effective.

 

 

I do not buy cutting edge either but I buy at the level my needs require for what I do. This purchase was mainly the Nvidia 8500 series DX 10 cards. While I could have went all out and did the 8800 series, we did not need that level of capability. We did need DX10 however since we are now supporting Vista as well as XP.

 

At first, like many, I was all ready to blame Microsoft for these problems. However we have found Vista to not be as big a problem as is being reported in the media. In fact, we have found that Vista is much more solid than XP ever was at this stage. We have also found that some software we used that has always been problematic under XP, runs great under Vista.. go figure.

 

I am not endorsing either OS. Just telling it from our experience in the development of our software and hardware components for our area of expertise.

[zaimoni]

@zaimoni: Not bad 8bit themed artwork going on with your avatar. Did you make it?

Yes.

 

I've considered diversifying into webcomics, but have not cared to actually spend the time to create adequate makefile-compatible software to back this up.

[Strong Bob]

@Malakie: Just out of curiousity, what did you say on those forums? I've never had to deal with censorship on either Nvidia's or ATI's tech support forum or e-mail. But then again I tend to be very descriptive without resorting to foul language.

 

I ask because sometimes tact is sometimes the one defining factor of everything. It's possible they saw you as just some schmuck complaining about problems that probably didn't exist, and as such removed your entry. Simple miscommunications like that happen often, so I wouldn't be so quick to judge Nvidia itself.

 

However since things have turned out better for you in the long run, this "Brian" probably was a greater blessing than you might think.

 

Regardless, I've been using Nvidia for a couple of years and I agree with Kret. After spending 600 USD on a brand new card just a couple of months ago, the last thing I want to deal with is Nvidia going under, and losing support of my product, because of a lawsuit.