Tanks in Base defense and Questions.

[Aralez]

Ok i had some base defense missions (2 to be precise) today. Despite my crew being in the base the game started without any soldiers but with the 10 laser tanks i had at that moment (don't ask ).

 

Here some pics:

https://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/19/949aa2fc47a6f9823d28a43c371ae319.th.jpg

 

https://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/2b/ff8403ac2e9bfa82e0ee3d2e9af5272b.th.jpg

 

https://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/81/5460feb94c3bdea5a647415e8ffb2681.th.jpg

 

Free Picture Host:PicTiger

 

To my big surprise they stopped the Smakemen/Chryssalid attack rather easily! Sure, i lost 4 of them in the first mission due to being a bit surprised, but in the second one i took down 25 aliens with zero losses and no big problems. That's on superhuman (fixed by Xcomutil) FYI!

 

The tactic is very simple. One view at picture no.2 and you see how it's done. I positioned two tanks far away from the access lift but still in viewing range, two more tanks were hidden around the corners of the hallway (I'm using the usual ambush base layout where the Hangaars are only connected to the rest of the base over the lift).

 

All other tanks were hidden in those "garages" for a lack of a better word. The aliens would walk out of the elevator and the tanks would use their reactionfire on them, as there were a lot of tanks and the laser weapon being quite acurate this worked wonders. Usually 2 or 3 aliens would still survive that first encounter.

 

Here is where the "hidden" tanks are useful: Simply drive out of the garage, shoot two times (as they are very close they will usually hit) and drive back to safety. Worked flawlessly!

 

As i said this worked so good that i didn't even lose 1 tank in the second mission. Nice tactic imo

 

--------------------------

 

Here some questions:

 

-Why did the game use the tanks instead of the soldiers?

-Why did i lose 1 Heavy Laser gun which was still in the Skyranger?

-Is there a maximum of tanks for such a scenario?

-What do you think of the tactic? Any ideas for improvement?

 

And one more unrelated question:

 

When i positioned my soldiers like this the enemy Mutons with Blaster Bombs couldn't hit them. I was shot at 3 or 4 times and all bombs simply passed by and dissapeared into the nothingness of the black wall. Bug or luck?

 

https://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/61/f76b295eb6cf7f558386cb09e3e39d61.th.jpg

 

p.s.: I hope i don't unnerve anyone by posting so much. Must be a strong and bad case of the Xcom fever that got me!

[Bomb Bloke]

Tanks appear first in the unit table, and fill up space equivalent to four smaller units. Ten tanks therefore require the memory space of forty soldiers.

 

That said, I thought you could fill up the unit table with all of your units, even if that means there isn't space left over for all the alien forces (there are 80 "slots" in all). So I dunno what's happening there.

[NKF]

Bomb Bloke: You can use up the spawn nodes, but the roughly 40 unitpos slot allocation per side is generally the same. If you downsize the base enough, you can result in auto-win base defence missions. Thank Zombie for pointing out this utterly brilliant strategy.

 

Aralez: As mentioned, what's happening is that because HWPs spawn first (this is mainly so that they can appear right at the front of a Skyranger/Avenger) and because of the number you have, they end up taking most of the unit table for your side. The programmers probably never took HWPs and base defence missions into account.

 

The garages are called HWP Closets. Well, not officially, but that's what we've been calling them for yonks. Makes sense too, since HWPs often start the mission in them.

 

Popping in and out of the closests and other rooms is a brilliant strategy. You can also have soldiers who are on the upper level or sharing the same booth use a motion sensor to detect movement outside before you take any action. If you spot any movement outside, you can then choose to have someone further off, well out of the alien's visual radius, pop out and take a few potshots. Someone coined a good name for this strategy, but I can't seem to remember what it was called. Not whack-a-mole, as it's more of the reverse. It is similar in that it involves small critters popping in and out of holes. Not possum? Oh well.

 

As for your heavy laser - I'm not entirely sure what happened there, but there is one faint possibility. Skyranger equipment is unloaded for the purpose of the base defence, so it could have been destroyed during the course of the battle.

 

Also, do not dare to presume that asking lots of questions is bugging us. It's practically mandatory! Well, within reason, of course!

 

- NKF

[Bomb Bloke]

We haven't actually answered them all yet. Sometimes questions lead to us finding out stuff we didn't know ourselves.

[Aralez]

Thanks, NKF, i will not stop asking !

 

HWP closets, lol, i like that And yes, there were some blaster explosions in the first mission (thats why i lost 4 tanks). That would explain the lost Heavy Laser!

 

What about the blaster bombs missing (in the last pic of my post), is it because my troops are kneeling or because they are at the end tile of the base?

[Bomb Bloke]

Why do the bombs always miss your soldiers? Well, bombs sail along at a height which just so happens to be above that of a kneeling soldiers' head (See: Blaster Launchers - Safe Practise).

 

While still deadly if they come down at an angle, or hit a nearby piece of terrain, you're a lot more likely to survive the bombs if you stay low.

 

In this case, XcomUtil has chopped up your map files (to prevent the Base Disjoint Bug... I think), so the bombs sail harmlessly off the map.

[NKF]

Kneeling. Edge of map. Blasters fired at same elevation.

 

Hmm.

 

Time for a few tests!

 

- NKF

[Tepid tasoth]

Kneeling. Edge of map. Blasters fired at same elevation.

 

Hmm.

 

Time for a few tests!

 

- NKF

 

Zombie is probably already working on some stats that show the hit percentage of kneeling vs. standing, w/ or w/o XCOMUTIL installed, etc.

 

Regarding the autowin mission, is all I need a base full of like 80 tanks an that's it?

[Aralez]

Wouldn't that be 20 tanks ? (if i understood that right -> 4tilesx20)

 

And thanks for the link, BB! I knew i had read that kneeling/safety thing somewhere in the Ufopaedia-Wiki but couldnt find the exact page...

 

Btw, is Xcomutil still being developed? I was on the official forum and the new guy doesn't seem to answer or do anything. I wanted to make some proposals about buffs for some Alien races which could maybe be included in XcomUtil. The Celatoid and the Silacoid are basically useless. In all my years of playing Xcom i never lost 1 soldier to them. Or the Reaper, which is much too fragile.

 

The Celatoid seems to be bugged. I psi-controlled some of them and they simply don't have enough energy to move and fire properly. And the Silacoid needs more TUs.

 

Hmmmm, maybe a good idea for a mod? I think i gonna do one after i finished my current game.

[Tepid tasoth]

Uh yeah, 20 tanks, my bad. I think the Celatid is that weak because it accompanies the Mutons. I don't quite get why Mutons need a 'terror' unit because on their own w/o Psi powered XCOM troopers, they're terror enough.

[NKF]

The mutons are more than enough, but the silacoid and celatid are easy to underestimate. Also, the celatid has the most powerful terror unit gun in the game. It does 140 acid damage - and that's just the base weapon damage. It literally rips through power armour. The AI is also able to fire the weapon in an arc, which may or may not go over walls.

 

The silacoid mainly sets fire everywhere it moves (also an AI-only feat) and does pack a punch if you miss it and it gets up to you. Like the Reaper. It's fairly tough to conventional weapons too.

 

---

 

The auto-win base just requires enough soldiers to fill up ALL the spawn points in the various modules that you build in the base. Because of this, you're going to end up with a severely stripped down base. This is where it gets tricky. You want the base to be functional to some capacity, but you want the absolute minimum in modules to reduce the spawn points.

 

I also hate to say it, but you want to avoid using tanks in this setup. The reason being, each tank consists of 4 units, but they will only occupy the one spawn point. You want all four units to occupy individual spawn points, so you'll need soldiers.

 

You want at least (and this must be the absolute maximum) one hangar for a Skyranger or Interceptor. Hangars have a ton of spawn points, so you can see why you only want one.

 

You'll also want a radar and living quarters.

 

You might want to leave the general stores out, and have equipment get transferred to the base on the Skyranger. But since this will be an auto-win mission, you won't need any equipment to defend the base. Here's the interesting part, even without general stores, you will be able to recover ALL the alien equipment. Yes, even if the aliens don't appear, you'll get to keep their equipment. Also, you don't need a general stores in order to be able to scoop up this equipment.

 

If done right, you should have a base that will never get destroyed. The battleship will land, the mission starts and then ends, and the world goes on as normal with the exception that you've come into the posessions of some alien weapons. If you had an Interceptor with plasma beams stationed at the base you can also continue to intercept. If you have a Skyranger stationed at the base, you'll be able to go out on missions as long as the Skyranger was pre-loaded with equipment like lasers, or you restock from the items left behind by base attacks and what you gather in combat. Armour can be put on at another base.

 

It's a cheat-of-sorts, but you could also think of it as automating the defences of your satelight bases so that you can concentrate on actually playing the game and only worrying about the defences of your primary assault bases.

 

- NKF

[Aralez]

No general stores, hmm, that will be hard or even impossible in the later game because you'll need Elerium to fuel your advanced spacecrafts. Should work with Interceptors, though.

 

Oh and see my quote here ? : In all my years of playing Xcom i never lost 1 soldier to them. Guess what happened today! No kidding. But i have to admit it was my fault, i psi-controlled the Celatoid and moved one of my soldiers into the same room. Unluckily i forgot about the Celatoid and bamm, one dead soldier

[NKF]

The auto-win base is ideal for intercept/listening outposts. You can easily make do with the interceptors to tackle everything but battleships. You could probably squeeze some stores in. Avengers can easily be dispatched from your main assault bases.

 

Here's what you could do. Build up your ideal stripped-down base. If you spot a battleship on its way, save the game and see how it goes. Reload the game and start removing facilities that you're comfortable living without. Repeat this until you get the leanest meanest base you can have that still retains the functionality you desire.

 

Mind you, even if some aliens manage to break through, you should still be using up many more spawn points than the aliens that their numbers will be severely reduced!

 

- NKF

[Bomb Bloke]

No general stores, hmm, that will be hard or even impossible in the later game because you'll need Elerium to fuel your advanced spacecrafts. Should work with Interceptors, though.

The rule which allows you to capture equipment from base missions, even without stores, applies to all mission types. Whenever you win a battle, the base the squad belongs to gets the equipment won instantly. You don't even have to wait for the team to return.

 

Stores are only really required if you want to manufacture, buy, or transfer equipment (and even then I'm not sure on that last one). Given that the only source of Elerium is by winning battles, and that you can transfer an Avenger to the base complete with a full tank, stores aren't an issue when it comes to gaining more fuel.

 

[shamelessplug]

 

Incedently, have you ever tried my mod (in my signature)? It's only really a cosmetic patch at this time (as I prefer to keep the game as close to its original state as possible), but one of these days I'll throw in all the fixes I've written/been meaning to write for this game.

 

[/shamelessplug]

[Aralez]

Believe it or not: I have been searching for that mod a whole day, not realizing that it is here directly under my nose! Many thanks for this!

 

And many thanks for the explanations !

[Aralez]

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/f6/e015ce3cf2ba7911cdbedddad11c8ef6.th.jpg

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/39/64ae5d71d835ef25ae2f55e5a4996b39.th.jpg

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/39/d9e34c68d562b834e357b603de463239.th.jpg

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/00/b88ea45be10d4acd222992f44158e800.th.jpg

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/4b/c7c42cc092abca39ea92406a83a4ee4b.th.jpg

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/bc/5b38e46a662df82238065ab5f34f11bc.th.jpg

 

BB: Awesome work! (and that is a huge understatement!) https://www.smiliegenerator.de/s32/smilies-44402.png

[Bomb Bloke]

[Zombie]

About the tanks, only 10 can ever show up in a base defense mission. X-COM's side is limited to 40 units total and apparently doesn't share the unit table with the aliens. As for why tanks spawn before soldiers and the whole auto-win mission, take a look at the Two Quick Questions thread. It boils down to this:

1. The game initially calculates how many spawn points are in your base.
   
2. Then the game spawns all of X-COM's weapons and equipment (including tanks).
   
3. After that, the game starts to spawn your soldiers. If there are more soldiers than spawn points, some get dropped.
   
4. Next, the game spawns the aliens weapons and equipment.
   
5. Finally, the game will attempt to spawn aliens if there are spaces open in the Access Lift or Hangar. If none can be found, the game doesn't spawn the aliens, and you automatically win the mission.
   

Point 2 is the major idea here. Equipment is spawned first before units are. Tanks are considered equipment (primary role) and 4 units (secondary role) so they come first. In addition, tanks come first in the equipment list so they take precedance over any weapons/equipment/items which come later in the list. I should also mention that in any type of normally constructed base, tanks alone cannot fill all the spawn points and give you an auto-win mission. It's just not possible. You need a mix of tanks and soldiers to get this scenario. And like NKF mentions, 100% soldiers are the preferred way since they can fill all spawn points, including those meant for tanks/large units.

 

- Zombie

[Aralez]

Does this work in TFTD, too? Because i finished my game on superhuman!!! See here:

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/b7/8b1b3e39a4be7a2c702cf0d0ec1ad4b7.th.jpg

Alien Mass suicide meeting. Muton: hey guys look what i got here!

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/b1/8ba313aa55de7a07adae5a60558957b1.th.jpg

Final gathering!

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/bb/645649a7a7fc7ccfd5bd14bbb29c60bb.th.jpg

Hi there, we are from earth, bring us to your leader!

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/4b/9e0bcb2cc27b0f9373b1df50317dbe4b.th.jpg

Oh yes? We'll see about that!

 

https://images6.pictiger.com/thumbs/8b/934eebd2f1d1b88d4d8185077863898b.th.jpg

Good bye mars-mama!

 

Imagehost - PicTiger

 

The final month was INREDIBLY hard, i had 20-30 (or even more) of UFOS to intercept each day and almost ran out of Elerium-fuel. Luckily the Cydonia-or-Bust research was finished in the very last moment!

 

BombBloke, your uniform/alien inventory mod is awesome, cudos to you!

 

Zombie i will try you autowin-base in TFTD if possible.

 

 

Thanks to everyone helping me through that Xcom game! See you in the TFTD thread!

[Bomb Bloke]

Equipment is spawned first before units are. Tanks are considered equipment (primary role) and 4 units (secondary role) so they come first.

Sorta. The Geoscape game engine (which generates the unit list) treats them as equipment, but the Tactical game engine (which does the actual spawning) only ever sees them as units.