Err... how do you + reaction if too low to react?

[EclipseDog]

I've got a squaddie who's been increasing in all of his stats wonderfully but his reaction stat never increases.

 

He's got over 70 TUs, over 80 Stamina, Firing Accuracy is 67, Throwing Accuracy is 78, Health is 49, Morale is 60, Strength is 47... but his reaction ability is 21 and never improves even though he has over 15 kills to his credit with only 5 missions under his belt.

 

Is there any way to force him to get better at reacting or should I stop saving TUs at the end of turns for possible shots..?

[Jman4117]

Camp a UFO door for three hours.

He'll eventually get off a shot at an alien and his reaction stat will improve.

[NKF]

The reaction stat increases with use. So, the only way to push it up is to actually get off a few reaction shots.

 

How do you do this? Well, as JMan4117 says camp outside a UFO. Wait long enough and all the aliens will leave the ship (except the one that often guards the bridge of some UFOs).

 

Don't camp alone. Camp with others - scatter to avoid grenades, but keep the doors within visual range. You may want to arrange it so that none of the aliens inside the UFO will be able to see your soldiers until they step outside the door - it's safer, though not necessary.

 

While this will mean that soldiers with higher reactions will get off a few shots first, the low reaction soldier will be safer than if he or she were alone. Also, because the chance of reaction fire working is apparently based off how many TUs you have left, there's a good chance that the low reaction soldier will get off a shot anyway (this is good!).

 

Pistols and laser pistols are great for increasing reactions. Mostly because of their cheap snap-shots (as I said above, remaining TUs influence the chance of getting off an opportunity shot). Even if they don't quite hit their targets, your reactions will still go up. And, besides, the crossfire is rather neat to watch!

 

It's a rather lazy way of training your soldiers - hence why I enjoy doing it so much.

 

- NKF

[EclipseDog]

Ok (now that I know that even a guy with pitiful reaction timing can eventually get off shots) I want to ask something... is it possible to MC an alien then stick it inside your skyranger after getting rid of its weapons and then just sentrying your guy needing reaction training at the ramp opening blocking the way out (along with a second guy that faces away so his back is completely turned to the alien to avoid reacting instead).

 

If it's workable you can guarantee that the only guy you want to train with reaction would be the only one firing and since the alien is weaponless (and not a HTH alien) there'd be no danger, right?

 

Which leads me to another question... eh... can you destroy your transport by shooting it up? Heh

[NKF]

You mean block the alien in the UFO and let your trainee loose on it? Sure you can, though getting off a reaction shot happens best when the alien is armed. (therefore, arm it with a standard pistol and make sure the trainee is wearing power armour! )

 

 

Re destroying your transport:

 

No, you cannot. There is one exception to this. In the mountain maps, you can destroy the ramp and landing gear (as well as the tough outer hull of the UFOs) with explosives.

 

In TFTD, on land, your transport ship is very vulnerable to powerful explosives. Underwater, it's nigh indestructable.

 

- NKF

[EclipseDog]

Actually I meant MC the alien then move it into your own shuttle rather than shooting up the alien craft, since I think it seems like the more damage you do to a landed yet still instact UFO through weapon fire, the less alien alloys, navigations, power sources, and elerium you seem to get for it. I could be mistaken... but I've found that even on the ship assaults rather than recovery that if you or the aliens set off grenades and weapon fire on the ship walls/roof/floors including stray shots, that the total level of attained alien materials at end mission decreases.

 

I even tested it using the reload method (by saving just after the battlefield was created but before any weapons had been fired by either side. First time through I lobbed nades whenever I wanted and freely fired autobursts at the aliens hiding in the UFO, second time I used aimed shots with only my best markswoman to eliminate collateral damage as much as possible) on the same exact UFO assault just in case the reason I was getting less was simply because I was assaulting different ships which were starting out with different stocks to begin with.

 

The results of that test makes me suspect what I've claimed here to indeed be true. Alloys, et al. all are decreased as the general health of the craft decreases. Hence I try to avoid combat in the general area of the downed UFOs in order to retrieve the maximum payload possible per mission.

[NKF]

Sorry, I meant the Skyranger. Must've swapped 'Skyranger' with 'UFO' when I was editing my post for a few typos. (now that I think about it, I can't imagine why!)

 

But as for collection - you'll find that you'll be gathering far too much, after a few missions. I mean, the alien alloy count, even if you get the maps where the reactors have blown, and you liberally blaster bomb the UFO, you'll still have insane amounts after a few missions. In fact, more than you'll ever need to finish the game. I even try to churn out personal armour for all my throwaway recruits (redshirts), and even then I still need to sell off the raw alloys to make more space.

 

Elerium is a fixed figure for every elerium pod you recover (purple dot at the base of the power sources), and the UFO components ... well, you only need a few to build your fleet of hybrid aircraft (and since I often only build two of the hybrid aircraft for pretty much the entire game, my requirements are a little low )

 

And if you have a base nearby with its regular supply ship, you'll never ever be in short supply of raw material ever again (or cash).

 

Therefore, by the way I approach the game, I have no qualms in blowing the UFO to smithereens.

 

- NKF

[Stewart]

This is why I filter on reactions only in the early part of the game. Everything else can be trained if low. The best way to deal with this in your case though. Is to give-up. He's just not gonna be a reaction kinda guy. If he were a rookie I'd say the best way is to sack/use-for-fodder but I assume you want to keep him.

[NKF]

Giving up is never an option. (except for raising psi-strength - then you should give up)

 

The only way to raise a low stat is to practice, practice, practice. Even if you have 130 firing accuracy, it's not too late to pick up on the reaction skill. The aliens you'll be facing will be the same ones you faced at the start of the game anyway - and the soldier's increased accuracy means a better hit rate - which is good for overall stat development.

 

Well if reaction is very low at first, then it may be a bit hard to raise it when everyone else is killing the aliens before you get a chance to squeeze off a shot (hence why low damage and fast firing weapons are good for reaction training). One option would be to buy a team of rookies for the veteran to 'train' and have them practice together.

 

Raise the reaction stat a few notches, and it just gets easier, and easier - even if you've already maxed the other stats.

 

 

 

I'm not entirely sure how reactions work, but this is one of my theories. It's based on the remaining time unit percentage:

 

Soldier A has 100% of his or her TUs left, and 34 reactions. 34 * 1 = 34

Alien B has 40% of its TUs and 70 reactions 34 * 0.4 = 28

 

So when A and B spot each other, A has the higher chance of getting the shot before B.

 

Let's take a play by play example (assume each side wins their chance 'roll'). We'll use the same two units above. This time the soldier has a pistol (18% per snap) and the alien a heavy plasma (30% per snap). We start with both units at 100% TUs. A has 34 reactions, B has 70 reactions. In this case, B will shoot first.

 

Both sides spot each other (TUs A = 100%, B = 100%)

 

Reactions A = 34, B = 70

B shoots (TUs A = 100%, B = 70%)

 

Reactions A = 34, B = 49

B shoots (TUs A = 100%, B = 40%)

 

Reactions A = 34, B = 28

A shoots ( TUs A = 82%, B = 40%)

 

Reactions A = 27, B = 28

B Shoots (Tus A = 82%, B = 10%)

 

Reactions A = 27, B = 7

A Shoots (Tus A = 64%, B = 10%)

 

Reactions A = 21, B = 7

A Shoots (Tus A = 46%, B = 10%)

 

Reactions A = 15, B = 7

A Shoots (Tus A = 28%, B = 10%)

 

Reactions A = 9, B = 7

A Shoots (Tus A = 10%, B = 10%)

 

Reactions A = 3, B = 7

The shooting stops as both parties have run out of TUs.

 

The above example probably won't always be true. There may be a random element where the game rolls a random number from 0 to the reaction level for both sides before comparing them - which seems to be the case for weapon damage levels.

 

- NKF

[EclipseDog]

Nice chart if it runs as nice as it looks. In your example though unless I intentionally trigger the alien reactions until less than 21% even if I leave 100% of my starting TUs that guy won't react... I'm beginning to think I should do as Stewart suggested and just not use him to react since he does everything else so well.

[NKF]

I just put together the above scenario. Edited a soldier and an alien to 34 and 70 reactions to test my theory. Put in a 255 sized pistol clip and a 255 ammo heavy plasma clip. Also gave them 255 armour so that I could test this continuously without having to reload. Insta-killed the other aliens, since they were annoying me. Set the soldier's TUs to 100 so I could run about the map to look for the lone alien. Found the panicking alien. Reset its morale to 100. Had it pick up a weapon. Started the test.

 

I watched, and watched, and watched, and every time the sequence was the same. B, B, A, B, A, A, A, A (with A = soldier, B = Alien).

 

I tested it a few more times while typing this ... and it was the same. So my theory is somewhat correct. Hurrah, I guess. Why do I have this sudden urge to fill a bathtub?

 

In your case, with your 21 reactions, I believe you have to be at 100% of your TUs and wait for the alien to fire twice (or perhaps do a lot of walking) before you even get a chance to shoot back. In which case, don't abandon all hope just yet. In a group environment, you'll still get off a shot or two once the alien's spent its first two shots on other targets. If you don't want to take the risk (and there's a lot of risk involved!), you might want to consider running your controlled training session by giving mental suggestions to the aliens to come over to the Skyranger for a spot of hands-on 'training'. Go for the Mutons, arm both parties with standard pistols (or perhaps the laser pistols) . Guaranteed hours of opportunity fire fun .

 

- NKF

 

P. S: Just FYI, just to further illustrate my statement that pistols are excellent reaction fire training weapons: Notice how the sequence has the soldier fire his gun 5 times? In terms of experience gained by the soldier, that's 5 extra points on the 'reaction experience' stat for your soldier (note that this experience stat is independant of the stat that counts the number of times you actually hit an enemy unit) - and the higher this stat, well, the better the chance at gaining 'reaction' experience. Note, that you can also get off 5 snapshots with the laser pistol if you need double the pistol's firepower - or if you're too lazy to reload the gun (It's 20% TUs a snap shot).

 

P. P. S: I wiped the floater and replaced it with an identical replica of my soldier (simple cut and paste job) just to see what happens when two units with an equal chance face each other. It seems this may be dependant on distance. I have no idea how it works, but at certain distances, the AI controlled unit fires first, and at other distances, the player controlled unit fires. My only conclusion is that it's semi-random.

 

 

P. P. P. S: Interesting thing I noticed while running the test. It's with regards to the rare 'reaction autoshots'. The floater in my test used snaps when the soldier was 4 or more tiles away, but it started to use auto-shots when I was between 1 to 3 tiles away from it. The soldier, on the other hand, when I switched his weapon to a heavy plasma, continued to use snapshots. Let's just say that after numerous tests, I'm now inclined to believe that standing 4 tiles way from any gun toting alien will actually prolong your life a little longer.

[Stewart]

Just to note. The giving up was with respect to reactions not other stats (except Psionic strength but that's in the bottom half of the game). But on second thought you do have a point. Let me explain.

 

Ordinarily very low reactions is nearly impossible to raise, so unlikely that I don't bother to try. But yes you can keep trying. The worse thing that can happen is that your soldier is plugged but then problem solved, or at least illiminated.

[cyrus]

Anyway, you can sack those soldiers or keep them performing different tasks, other than reaction fire. For example, they may work as snipers, for snipers don't need very good reactions as they stay at the back lines or they may be psi specialists. So really, you can find a lot for them to do.

[Stewart]

That's a good point! It's a far less dramatic reaction, to be sure. But, in a sense, it is giving up (on raising reactions that is).

 

NKF, rule of thumb, reactions below X; forget it the soldier is stuck?

[NKF]

Well, does anyone know what the average, min and max possible values a brand new soldier can get?

 

I'd say if you get below 10 reactions - you might want to give up, but only slightly! Look at my play-by-play example. An alien with 70 reactions gets down as low as 7 reactions by the time it has reduced its TUs to 10% of its maximum.

 

Otherwise, if you're about 20 or above, then the soldier still has a chance.

 

Now, if you started with a perfect 0 - then there's no hope whatsoever for you! (technically, if you get the alien down to 0% of its time units, you actually do have a chance. However, in this case, it would be much more reasonable to hire a new soldier)

 

It also depends on the reaction levels of the aliens, as they differ from species to species. If the alien has a really big reaction score, then your soldier's going to be in a bit of trouble even with full TUs. However, once the alien takes its shot, misses, and exhausts its TUs, well, there you go. Nothing's going to stop you from shooting back at it.

 

Still, not everyone needs to be big on reactions. Yes, it's nice to have high reactions to lower the chance enemies get off reaction fire during your turn (At least that's how I think it works), but not everyone needs to be a master of all trades.

 

- NKF

[cyrus]

Ha, I've just thought about training rookies with low reactions on Lobsterman

 

These guys have insane reactions and will miss one time out of hundreds

[Stewart]

Well, does anyone know what the average, min and max possible values a brand new soldier can get?

It might be in my game notes @ (well you know the OTHER place).

[Mouse Nightshirt]

Oh the joys of reactions. I once had a squad of about 5 soldiers who has supreme accuracy and reactions. I just sent them into battle, and they shot the aliens themselves when it was the aliens turn, very rarely missed.

 

Reactions are the key to doing well at this game. Untul I learnt of reaction fire, and reactions, I sucked. The day I learnt of reaction fire, I was good. Blessed am I

[Zombie]

In response to NKF's question concerning what values a new soldier can have, I have prepared a table listing these numbers below. Sorry for the sloppy look of it. I am a new member, and this is my first post!

 

 ---AVERAGE----
STATISTIC MIN MAX RANGE MEDIAN MODE ANTIC. ACTUAL

Time Units 50 60 11 55 51/52 55 54.76
Stamina 40 70 31 55 47 55 54.72
Health 25 40 16 32 28 32.5 31.92
Bravery 10 60 6 30 10 35 34.10
Reactions 30 60 31 46 50 45 45.12
Firing Acc. 40 70 31 56 56 55 55.52
Throwing Acc. 50 80 31 66 76 65 65.69
Strength 20 40 21 30 25 30 29.82
Psionic Strength 0 100 101 52 79 50 52.28
Psionic Skill 16 24 9 20 20 20 20.16

 

The last two columns are the averages: Anticipated Average = (MIN + MAX)/2, and the Actual Average which is found by adding many values and dividing by the count. The count for the number of soldiers I am drawing these values from currently stands at 200 (and steadily increasing). Eventually, I expect to have a database of 1000 soldiers for more accurate values. I will keep you posted on my progress and post an updated table in the near future.

 

In case any of you are wondering why I have these statistics, it is because I am currently working on a Comprehensive Strategy Guide (55 pages and growing) for X-COM UFO Defense. Mathematics is my strong area and this guide will make good use of it. The Official Strategy Guide (OSG) does give the skill range for TU, STA, HE, BR, RE, FA, and TA, but does NOT give values for Strength, or the Psionic abilities.

 

The distribution of the values in each skill area appears to be LINEAR in nature, which means that a newly created soldier has an equal chance of having any number in that skill range. For example, a soldier has an equal chance of having a value of 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59 or 60 for his/her Time Units. In comparison, funding changes in X-COM by each country have a GAUSSIAN (or bell shaped) distribution. Quite a complex little game!

 

I have found this forum to be friendly and containing very intelligent people! I welcome any of your comments or questions, and hope to post again soon.

[NKF]

Intelligence has nothing to do with it! It's elbow size! Uh, well, nevermind.

 

Anyway, welcome to the forums. I'm the resident madman who needs a new hobby.

 

---

 

By the way - I'd just like to point out that psi skill, for a brand new soldier, always starts at 0. The way the game hides your psi stats is by simply checking psi skill. If psi skill > 0, show the psi stats, etc.

 

I take it that's for the initial stats that the psi-labs bequeath upon you after your first month of training.

 

---

 

Looking at the table, I guess you could conclude that each stat for a new soldier is calculated as follows. In geek:

 

Stat = MIN + rand()%(1 + maximum additional points);

 

(the stat is the base value (the minimum) plus a random number between 0 and the maximum amount of possible additional points)

 

The random number generator used by the game appears to have an equal opportunity of giving any number of possible values within the set ranges, so I guess it makes as much sense as anything.

 

- NKF

[EclipseDog]

What scares me is that I've had guys and girls who unlucked out quite often... I am sad to say that I can confirm every one of those minimum stats, god help me. Then again it's kind of an ego booster when you can make someone that would die against a granny alien and make them into someone that can stand toe to toe with a reaper.

[cyrus]

Greetings Zombie and welcome to the safe heaven for X-Com craving souls, known as XCTC Thank you for the complement (to the whole board, of course! ).

 

If you're interested in mathematics, then you should browse the 'Formulas (oh the agony)' topic, for it is specially dedicated to the different ingame formulas and the stuff like that.

 

By the way, your talk about linear and gaussian distributions have reminded me of the same talk some time ago, concerning damage vs. armour (I will talk about it here, if you please, though it is from another thread). Well, the question is: if the distribution of random damage values is linear(even) or gaussian(normal or bell curve). Personally, I think it's linear in the range Nominal Damage +/- 50%*Nominal Damage but I haven't gathered any statistical info on this, so I may be wrong.

 

Also, NKF, that's amazing. I also used such a criteria to determine, whether to show PSI stats or no (in the little util, which I wrote to display different game graphs in more convenient way).

[Mouse Nightshirt]

Welcome to the forums

 

Those averages cause me pain. I'm sure the average reaction of my rookies is 30! very rarely get any decent reaction soldeirs

 

I always get the short straw

[cyrus]

Ha, and from that graphs, if I remember correctly, mode means the value which delivers the maximum of distribution density (the function that shows how many values have the particular probability). Then, for Reactions (mode = 50) that means that most of the soldiers will have Reactions around 50, right (on this particular sampling)? Of course, the sampling of 200 soldiers is not very representative, but it really seems, Mouse, that you get the short straw.

[EclipseDog]

Err actually when I said I can confirm every one of those minimums I was mistaken a bit because I misread what he had put down for the minimum reaction since I was in a bit of a hurry when reading through that and didn't look too closely at one of the stats listed there... the very one that spawned that data being listed here in the first place - reactions.

 

It's not 30 min for reactions it's 20 I think... or at least I know that I had a guy with 21 reaction ability... and I doubt the CPU just decided to be extra mean to me one day... and I doubt that the game values would be set at 21 as the low... 20 makes a lot more sense to me. :shrugs:

 

PS: That also means that your stats for median, range, and mode are off for that one.