Diplomatic aliens

[Stewart]

I thought large radars had the same chance.

 

I just build one radar now, briefly I'll have two. I start out with one small and then one the path to my large radar is independant of my small radar I demolish the small since I use it's possition to help make a choke point.

 

At anyrate when I used to build lots of radars, it was one large the rest small You lose the percentage detection chance in the large radar areas beyond small but that doesn't really mean much and this arrange is cheaper and quicker to build and basically does what you want anyway. By the time you have the dough to change all the smalls to large you've got HWD and you only need one of them and nothing else.

[Crazy Photon]

Aye, detection changes increase as you keep adding radars, but a hyperwave decoder has 100% detection chances and a higher detection range than the large radar...

[Squaddie01]

The UFOpedia doesn't state that the hyperwave decoder has a 100% chance of detection. Actually it doesn't say it acts as a radar at all. Is it by your experience that it detects everything? I still doubt this because even with all of my bases having multiple small and large radars and a hyperwave decoder, small infiltration crafts still appear to get past. Sometimes my radars pick up the crafts after they have successfully infiltrated a country. Next thing I know, the Battleship swarm shows up.

[The Demi-Godly One]

Yeah, I thought that the hyperwave decorder only had a 50% chance of detecting UFO'S. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm interested in this...

[NKF]

The hyperwave decoder is essentially a very expensive large radar, but with a mission decoder. I cannot say anything about its scanning efficiency.

 

I propose an experiment. Start a new game and edit the base with one decoder and a lot of large radars. I mean, plug every possible gap with a large radar array. Remember to leave the decoder one day to get built or else it'll just function as a very expensive large radar (I think the bases have a switch that says whether or not it can decode mission data, and this is only toggled when a HWD is actually 'built').

 

Now check and see if the furthest UFOs detected has their mission parameters decoded, just for comparison.

 

Repeat this experiment, but replace the large radars with hyperwave decoders this time and see how frequently you spot UFOs.

 

If you want, repeat this experiment with the small radars.

 

- NKF

[Zeno]

The UFOpaedia states that the small radar and large radar both have a 5% chance to detect, cumulative with more radar. In addition, the large radar has a 50% further range than the small radar. It does not indicate any range increase with multiple radar.

 

Kasey Chang's USG states that the hyperwave decoder has a 100% chance to detect, and has a further range than a single large radar. He also does not state that there is a range increase.

 

I think the differences we experience in successful detection comes from another factor altogether. The UFOpaedia states that the small and large radar have a chance to detect every 10 minutes.

 

So much for the sources.

 

Now it comes to interpretation. If the radar has a 360 degree simultaneous detection area, and this "instant knowledge" system occurs every 10 minutes, then UFOs should never be able to slip in undetected (assuming you have 20 radar or 1 decoder, thus a 100% chance to detect).

 

But we've all had UFOs slip in undetected. If, on the other hand, the radar has a "sweep" that performs a complete 360 degree rotation every 10 minutes, then even a 100% detection chance may not detect every UFO. To slip in undetected, a UFO would merely have to move just behind (or ahead) of the radar sweep line.

 

This second explanation seems more plausible. However, it would also require a more complex detection algorithm from the game. It seems unlikely the XCOM game developers would focus so heavily on the radar implementation, as there are so many other things in the game that could've used more attention.

 

There may simply be an absolute maximum detection cap that is less than 100%. This simple answer is annoying, but seems more consistent with other aspects of the game.

 

------

 

I agree with NKF's experiment idea, but it would require a lot of experimental games. After enough games, you should be able to get a fairly good picture of maximum detection range for each setup. This should also identify whether there is any range boost from multiple radar.

 

However, I disagree with NKF mentioning frequency. In a short period, the game will probably fly the exact same UFOs in the same positions and with the same destinations when you save and reload. But different games, and in longer periods of the same game, more or fewer UFOs may simply enter the detection area.

 

To measure the chance to detect, save a game in which several UFOs are detected very close to the base. Then, edit the base to have no radar, reload the game, and save immediately after all radar blips disappear. Now you have your test game. Try various radar setups (multiple times for each setup) to get a feel for accuracy, and record the results. Just remember not to save over the test game.

 

--Zeno

[Crazy Photon]

Squaddie01, I was talking about the USG

 

Well, according to the USG you only need one hyperwave decoder and nothing else, so I always assumed that the range of detection isn't cumulative... so yes, it'd be nice to experiment to see if this assumption is incorrect.

[Squaddie01]

I don't believe the range is cumlative, just the chance to detect increases with multiple large or small radars.

[Crazy Photon]

I agree to that.

 

Back on topic, I usually like these kind of missions as taking on intact battleships give lots of resources, and they are a massacre, usually for the aliens

[NKF]

Oh the range is cumulative. The base information screen says so!

 

I've often had experiences where I was happily tracking a passing UFO with a single hyperwave decoder only to have the ufo drop off the radar not too far away, then pop up a short while later (unannounced) once it entered the radar sweep zone of the next base.

 

Installing a few extra large radars (or decoders if money was plentiful) often improved matters. Passing ufos still dropped off the radar, but at greater distances.

 

In the end though, very wide radar sweeps are only beneficial if the base is on its own with no other bases nearby for radar support -- such as in Hawaii or a polar cap. If you have many bases near each other, shorter radar sweeps are okay, as they can overlap.

 

- NKF

[tftd fan]

But you cannot keep adding short / long range radars for ever though. I think there is a limit of range for optimal number of radar that maximize the probability of IDing the UFO.

 

I have seen that lot of people i've talked with that once with the hyperwave decorder, there is not need of the rest of radars. but he usg is not clear about that.

 

In the same thinking, I conclude that just one of these decorder is also enough to detect the bugs. There will be cases that the UFO passes nearby yr base undetected, but his is not usual at all. Happens all the time, so if this is reasonable, I won't bothered at all, besides, keeping building radars all around just to detect what? One or two more UFOs??? No thanks.

[Mouse Nightshirt]

I can't remember where I read it, but the hyperwave decoder is programmed into the game to have 100% detection rates. I always sell all my radars once I build one, and the range is definately farther, and I do pick up a lot more UFOs.

 

Regarding Russia. I have the PSX version (or the vastly superior version to those of you who don't know ), and Russia is usually one of the first countries to go with me. Usually, they'll terrorise Novosbirsk, then a few months later, send in the infiltration platoon.

[Fox]

Posted by Mouse Nightshirt

In reference to map editors

"I would try it, but I have the PSX version, so it's a no go for me"

 

Must not be too much superior of a version then, eh?

[The Demi-Godly One]

What exactly does the percent of detection refer to? Because I am sure that UFO's can pass by undetected even with a 100% chance of detection. (I have heard that it refers to how likely you are to detect ships every 10 minutes, could someone confirm this?)

[Zeno]

Apologies to Rosstoid, as this topic has completely drifted from infiltration...

 

In any case, I'd like to point out something about the Base Information screen. There are 2 lines, with two separate labels, and a numbered lined from 1 - 5.

 

The labels are "Short Range Detection" and "Long Range Detection". When you have 1 small radar, your short range detection = 1. When you have 2 small radar, your short range detection = 2. This continues up to 5 (when you have 5 or more small radar).

 

Not surprisingly, "Long Range Detection" works exactly the same way for large radar.

 

Now, what does this mean exactly? Unless you have word-order (order-word?) dyslexia, "Short Range Detection" does not mean "Short Detection Range". Why then are we assuming this measures detection range?

 

If it DOES measure detection range, and if all the UFOpaedia information is correct, and if the range is cumulative for radar...then, 3 small radar should have a detection range of 900 nautical miles, with a 5% chance to detect for each radar. 2 large radar should also have a detection range of 900 nautical miles, with a 5% chance to detect for each radar.

 

If that's true, why is there a separate measurement? If I have 3 small radar and only 1 large radar, then a cumulative detection range means my small radar have a longer range than my large radar. In addition, why is the range labeled 1 - 5, instead of 300, 600, 900... (or 450, 900, 1350...)? The base defense label has actual values, why are the radar different?

 

Okay, so what if "Short Range Detection" and "Long Range Detection" values, 1-5, actually refer to percentage? Is chance to detect cumulative? If I have 3 small radar, do I have 15% chance to detect? Does the Base Information screen give the chance to detect for each radar type? If "Short Range Detection" is the chance to detect, why does it give a value of 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 (instead of 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25)?

 

 

I'm asking lots of questions, because I believe no one has an answer. The original game manual includes a description of the Base Information screen, but fails to mention anything regarding radar. We've all made assumptions (me included) based on very poor, limited UFOpaedia information, and Kasey Chang's Unofficial Strategy Guide. Don't get me wrong--the USG is very good! But there are errors in it, and some formulae are incorrect.

 

 

Given how the game simplifies values for a variety of formulae, I have a suggestion. Perhaps the Base Information screen lists "Short Range Detection" and "Long Range Detection" as a straightforward count of how many radar are in the base. Each radar has a 5% chance to detect, non-cumulative. Therefore, if you have 3 small radar, you have 3 attempts (at 5% per attempt) to detect a UFO every 10 minutes within the non-cumulative range of 300 nautical miles.

 

I don't like that answer very much, but it's possible. In any case, we shouldn't assume a significant benefit unless there is actually information (or verification) to support it.

 

 

One other comment: I have noticed that using a single small radar in mid-US can detect UFOs in Alaska and Venezuela. A single small radar in southern Europe can detect UFOs in Scotland and well into Saudi Arabia. These distances are well beyond 300 (or even 450) nautical miles.

 

While we're on the subject, has anyone figured out the detection range and percentage chance for aircraft? I've noticed aircraft seem to detect (while patrolling) within a range of about the width of Germany, though the percentage chance seems about the same as one small radar.

 

Is it time to open a new thread detailing all things RADAR?

 

--Zeno

[NKF]

A new radar specific thread would be a good idea, actually. Would make referencing information a bit easier.

 

---

 

I ran a few tests on the radars. They weren't very thorough, but I noticed a few things I thought would be worth mentioning:

• The radar indicators in the base information screen only count the number of modules in the base. The actual counters/flags that tell the base that it has a radar is hidden from the player. I think a bit of rummaging around the savegame file that stores the base information may prove to be most enlightening...
   
  A note to those using the CWE editor suit to add radars to your base: Any large or small radars installed by this editor do not function. The variables that let the base know about the radars aren't set. You can get around this by setting their remaining build time to 1 day and let them get built properly by the game. Anyone making a base editor may want to take note of this.
   
  So much for cumulative range...
   
   
  
• The very first base you build when starting a new game is unique! It has a built-in small radar! And no, I do NOT mean the one you start off with. Try starting a brand new game and demolish the small radar -- in fact, demolish the entire base down to just the access lift just to be thorough. Now let time fly by. Notice how your base still picks up enemy ships? Now dismantle the access lift and 'Build' a new base and let time go by again. Notice this 'new' base no longer detects any UFOs?
   
  Note: This is true for the CE. Haven't had a chance to test this with the dos version.
   
   
   
   
  
• For those wanting to run radar tests of their own: Novosibirsk is a good place to build your test base. Build the base smack on top of the city, centre on it and set magnification to x3 and you'll see that Moscow and Beijing are practically on opposite edges of the screen. They can be used as guides. A small radar should be able to detect any UFO slightly beyond the two cities mentioned. I managed to detect UFOs as far as Berlin, Shanghai and Delhi with the large radar. Haven't done much testing with the HWD, but I think it went all the way to London at one time.
   
   
   
  
• Ever notice why you sometimes don't pick up a UFO until it's right next to your base? Your radars aren't faulty - the UFO just never physically existed until then.
  

---

 

Right, so after numerous tests, those for the non-cumulative-radar argument earn a point. One radar of any type appears to detect and keep track of UFOs just as well as 25 radars of the same type. This seems true for all radar types -- not just the hyperwave decoder.

 

On the other hand, UFO detection probability with multiple radars is hard to gauge, as the number of UFOs that can get spawned tend to be random. From observation, the different radars seem to pick up UFOs just as well as each other. The only differences being their detection range, build time, cost (build cost and maintenance), and different module layouts. (The HWD also has its special mission decoding ability)

 

Therefore, I guess the only remaining excuse to build more than one radar of any type, or even obsolete radars, would be for their differing floorpan layouts.

 

But don't take my word for any of this. Run a few tests of your own and see what results you get.

 

- NKF

 

P.S: Can X-Com automatically generate points or can the aliens get negative points? I did absolutely nothing in any of the above tests, as all I had was the lift and a radar (the built-in small radar). No UFOs popped up for the entire month. The monthly score of 176 was a bit of a shocker. Several tests later, I had another rather uneventful month with only a couple of ufo sightings, and a monthly score of 96 or so points. Odd. Any ideas?

[Slythe]

Hmm very odd NKF. I noticed both your scores were multiples of 16, so you had 11 one month and 6 another. I was going to suggest that perhaps you get points for just detecting UFOs, but you said the month you got 176 there were no detections. Are you sure of that ? Otherwise I don't know what would give the points unless there's just some random number that's awarded at the end of each month.

[The Demi-Godly One]

Actually I'm pretty sure you get points for destroying a base module. Don't know why, but you do. (Or at least I think you do, I've heard this somewhere before...)

[NKF]

Major edit:

 

Okay, so your first base is not unique. I just gave this a test in Dos TFTD and made a rather astounding discovery. If it works in TFTD for dos, then it'll work in UFO too.

 

Er, that wasn't the discovery.

 

I built a new base, installed a transmission resolver aqua-pod and waited until it was built. Once it was built, I removed it. Sure enough, a few day later, the lone air-lock was picking up USOs and interpreting their mission data.

 

So, the very act of building the radar was enough to enable its scanning features. What a way to reduce your monthly maintenance bill and free up one base module! The programmers must have forgotten to clear a variable or two when removing radar modules.

 

Now, I wonder if this phantom radar remains if you reload the game? *sigh* Yet another experiment....

 

---

Hmm very odd NKF.  I noticed both your scores were multiples of 16, so you had 11 one month and 6 another.  I was going to suggest that perhaps you get points for just detecting UFOs, but you said the month you got 176 there were no detections.  Are you sure of that ?  Otherwise I don't know what would give the points unless there's just some random number that's awarded at the end of each month.

Oh, yes, I'm pretty sure about the month with 176 points. I wrote down the score right after I saw it. The second score was lower on account of the minor alien activity-- otherwise there was nothing unusual.

 

Hmm, the only thing that I can possibly think of at the moment that may have influenced the score was the monthly balance. It was the only bar in the graphs for that month that had any significant increase.

 

- NKF

[Zeno]

You do get points for having more cash on hand at the end of the month. If you destroyed all your base modules and didn't buy much, and if the aliens weren't particularly active, then it makes sense you had a slightly positive score. I've noticed this in my own games, when I have one of those rare months when I detect few or no UFOs and don't manage to shoot any down.

 

On the other hand, maybe the mutons revolted against the ethereals, wreaking havoc among the alien hordes. The sectopods started shooting their reaper brethren, and the snakemen barbequed the remains, causing the floaters to come in and try to make peace. Failing miserably, the sectoids decided to enhance the action by throwing their cyberdiscs into the fray...

 

The ensuing casualties must've resulted in a positive score for X-COM. Well done!

 

NKF, thanks so much for the range clarification! I have one minor addition about the starting base. If you use XCOMUTIL, and modify your starting base to have no radar, then you will have no radar. (You won't start with a free small radar effect).

 

I'll have to play around with it more though--the default XCOMUTIL base starts you with a large radar. Based on your findings, it's possible that module doesn't work as advertised.

 

------

 

In the original game manual, I did find a reference to building radar. It states that you should experiment with different base setups, and mentions building a dedicated radar base filled with both small and large radar. Yes, both, and multiple!

 

Therefore, I suspect that there is some benefit--or that, at one time, they planned to have some benefit for multiple radar.

 

I think you're right, NKF. A thorough examination of the save game files would be enlightening...

 

No, I haven't found it yet.

 

------

 

Your major edit indicates you'll find the answers before me anyway. Another thing to test: If you build a radar, then destroy it, then build *another* radar...does the action of building a radar clear the old variables and replace them, or does it count as having 2 radar?

 

Some before- and after- save game file comparisons should uncover the mischievous variables involved.

 

------

 

A question: Someone somewhere in these forums implied that building a base right on top of a city will prevent terror attacks on that city. Seeing as how I've never built a base on top of a city, I've never tested this. Has anyone noticed any different effects? Fewer or more base attacks? Fewer or more terror attacks in the city? No difference? Just curious.

 

As for other base placement plans (which in some way is related to radar, and radar is in turn related to detecting infiltration, and detecting is related to preventing...just so everyone is keeping up) I have seen suggestions in the forums about placing bases in border areas. This seems to work remarkably well. If you keep zooming in and clicking, you can find the exact pixels where one region ends, and another region begins. Choose one side or the other, and build a base. Any UFOs shot down just across the border will never cause an Alien retaliation. The aliens will search the other region, where the UFO was shot down, rather than the neighboring region where your base is located.

 

Of course, if you shoot down aliens in the region where your base is located, they can find you eventually. Still, they seem to search the central area of a region and leave the borders alone.

 

--Zeno

[NKF]

Just had a look at the base file. There are three variables that change as you add the various radars. They aren't cleared when you remove any of the radars.

 

Let's call them short (S), long (L) and hyperwave (H).

 

Small radar: S: 10, L: 0, H: 0

Large radar: S: 20, L: 20, H: 0

HW Decoder: S: 0, L: 0, H: 100

 

I have no idea what these values mean, but I'm guessing that they are the detection probabilities.

 

Note: A small and large radar combo give you : S: 30, L: 20, H: 0

 

Extra radars of the same type have no additional effects. I guess, once you've built a radar, the effects are there for good until the base is destroyed or decomissioned.

 

- NKF

 

P. S: I forgot to mention that when a new radar is built, it does cancel out the phantom radar. So if you want a phantom radar that can do S: 30, L: 20 and H: 100, build all three radars before removing them.

 

P. P. S: XComutil's 'advanced base' sets the large radar's parameters correctly.

[Cadmus]

If I ever saw a battleship on infiltration duty I would scramble everything with weapons on it, making sure an Avenger got there first, much like many hack and slash games the first thing to fire is the only thing that is targetted by the enemy, so if you make the Avenger attack first you can bulk up the firepower with more craft like Firestorms and maybe even Interceptors if they can get there fast enough.