Ethereal Attacks

[uriaheep]

It is something I fist noticed the first time I played the game some time ago, but after playing the game more recently it has become nore obvious. When I have done the research to be able to complete Psy attacks I first have to spot the enemy before attacking it. It was soon quite obvious that this is not the case for the aliens in the game.

 

I tried this out when landing with the rear of a Skyranger with it's ramp to the edge of the board and then held all my troops inside just using a hover tank to move outside.

 

As I guessed one of the unfortunate troopers was attacked and it just happened to be the one holding the 'Tin Opener' (blaster launcher)

 

Is this common knowledge or is it just the Etherials that attack me that can see through solid matter?

 

Just to point out that at the moment I cannot use Psy attacks at this stage in the current game.

[FullAuto]

As soon as the aliens spot one of your soldiers, they immediately know where they all are.

[Zombie]

I just did some more intensive research into this subject today. "Surprising" may be the best word to describe the results.

 

There is a Superhuman Sectoid base hidden nearby, so I sent two psi-poor soldiers over there to investigate and saved the game. If both soldiers spawned upstairs in the green room, and there were no aliens visible underneath, then I exited the game. Now, I edited all the aliens (except the lone Sectoid Commander) to have 1 for current/max health plus a couple of fatal wounds. The Sectoid Commader was rooted to one spot. After clicking the next round button, all the aliens died except for the Sectoid Commander. To make sure Morale didn't mess up the results, I edited that back to 100%.

 

Theoretically, the Commander should be oblivious to my soldiers whereabouts since the aliens never got a location on my two men. After 10 rounds, suddenly the Sectoid Commander started to wage some psi-attacks. Can you say "cheater"? The aliens apparently know the locations of your troops immediately when combat begins!

 

Still, you have about 10 rounds or so to kill all the aliens before the psi-attacks start, so that is the good news.

 

- Zombie

[uriaheep]

That I can easily believe. I have long since thought that there is some kind of 'trigger' after a certain amoutn of turns. I have on several occasions sent a special unit equiped for attacks on Etherials and part of the tactics of the unit is to sit and wait for the first alien to appear. On the occasions that they have not appeared after some time, my troops have been attacked by mind control measures.

 

As to the idea that they can see all human troops when they see one would also figure - this obviously includes tanks.

 

It makes quite a difference to game play when you know this.

[Gimli]

This does not surprise me at all. A lot of strategy games use this, I think Starcraft, Warcraft and C&C are among them. The computer can see your troops from the begining, which gives it an advantage over you to make it a relatively worthy opponent, since it lacks some more advanced AI. There is also no delay when making building, moving and similar orders in RTS games, which you cannot do. However that the computer almost never uses the "tank rush" in RTS games, otherwise it would be very difficult, especially for more casual strategy games players.

 

Here's another interesting tidbit. If you have Warcraft 3, and open the very last SP mission (the one where you have to hold out for 45 minutes), and enter the cheat to show you the whole map (I think it was: iseedeadpeople), and then move to the location of the undead base, you can see that everything gets done unusually quickly, every 5-10 seconds another unit will come out, and the buildings are also built quickly.

 

I must admit I didn't notice much of an improvement in the field of actual AI in the last few years in some RTS games. I remember when I played the original C&C, the last GDI mission was extremely difficult, because the computer had two bases, and you had to make two coordinated attacks in order to get rid of both construction yards and both airstrips (used to make an MCV), otherwise NOD would just build them again, and you were low on resources, and could afford only one good attack. It took me a lot of tries to defeat NOD. Ah, the good old times.

 

Anyway, back on topic, Zombie, is the 10 turn advantage for Sectoids there in all missions in which they actually use psi, or just when you attack their base? Because I clearly remember that on Cydonia, they used it from the begining. This was on Superhuman.

[Zombie]

Well, I am in the process of testing this out right now, so please excuse the lack of concrete evidence. All I have is a bunch of preliminary results to submit.

 

It appears that the delay in psi attacks is based directly on the psionic strength of your soldiers. For instance, if I edited my soldier to have a Psionic Strength (PStr) of 100 and a Psionic Skill (PSkl) of 16, the (armed) Sectoid Commander was unwilling to use its psi against my trooper. I even waited >500 rounds and still nothing. However, when I edited PStr of my soldier down to 90, the Sectoid Commander started to wage attacks. (There was a 10-357 turn differential, but it happened). When PStr dropped to 80, the delay was between 10 and 50 turns. Chop PStr down to 0 and the attacks still started on round 10 but the max turns I got was about 15. Identical results were obtained when both PStr and PSkl were at 0. Same deal when I edited PStr to 16 and a PSkl of 254.

 

This leads me to believe that the 10 round psionic delay is a safe minimum estimate for an unaltered Superhuman Sectoid base Commander. It's just that as the Psionic Strength of your soldier increases, then so does the range. In other words, the higher the PStr, the more turns it could possibly take. Apparently, Psionic Skill doesn't play any role in the turn differential range.

 

As for Ethereals, I'll have to give this a shot to see if the 10 turn minimum delay still holds. Most likely it does. But there are a ton of variables associated with Psi, so its gonna take some time to sort it all out.

 

[Edit: I just edited PStr to 99 and PSkl to 16 and ran the experiment again. After waiting 1300+ turns, nothing happened. However, when I moved my soldier closer to the Sectoid Commander, the psionic attacks began. Distance must play a role too. See what I mean about variables? Doesn't really matter though, because the 10 turn minimum lag still happened.]

 

- Zombie

[Gimli]

It is interesting though that there's no delay when on the first part of Cydonia. I assume that it's because you are expected to be to powerful at that point, because I'm pretty sure that even on Superhuman, without the Sectoids' PSI I would clear the first part within 10 turns, unless some Sectoid was hidden well, but at that point his morale would probably be pretty low.

It's also interesting that the second part is actually easier, at least it was to me. Just MC all possible aliens, use them for scouting, together with any tanks you might have to make sure you see the MC-ed aliens all the time and use the aliens to kill any others you might encounter. The Celatids are especially valuable here, because their snapshot has a 93% chance to hit, and the attack does a lot of damage even to Sectopods.

[NKF]

This completely dashes the original idea that an alien's intelligence stat was used to remember where the last soldier was for so many turns (no point - they already know where everyone is from the start), perhaps the intelligence is used in part to determine this no-psi grace period?

 

- NKF

[uriaheep]

[Edit: I just edited PStr to 99 and PSkl to 16 and ran the experiment again. After waiting 1300+ turns, nothing happened. However, when I moved my soldier closer to the Sectoid Commander, the psionic attacks began. Distance must play a role too. See what I mean about variables? Doesn't really matter though, because the 10 turn minimum lag still happened.]

 

- Zombie

 

 

Distance is certainly a factor. I tried several attacks on the same game last night - firstly saved a game and then sent all troops out to scout the area within an Etherial base and to find aliens and thus a safe route. Then restarted and using the safe route I knew to have no aliens made my way to the control centre.

 

I found that the closer I left my scout to the base, the quicker the attacks came and also the number of attacks increased.

 

It is certainly a cheat and as Gimli stated it is probably to compensate for poor AI - problem is, it kinda spoils the use of delicate tactics.

[Zombie]

This completely dashes the original idea that an alien's intelligence stat was used to remember where the last soldier was for so many turns (no point - they already know where everyone is from the start), perhaps the intelligence is used in part to determine this no-psi grace period?

I ran some more tests on this today. This time I sequentially edited the Sectoid Commanders intelligence from its starting value of 8 all the way down to 2 (the lowest of any alien). No difference was noted. I even edited intelligence to 1 and 0 (illegal values for an alien). Same thing. Nice thought though, NKF. There must be another variable which governs that delay.

 

If the aliens actually do know the initial locations of all your troops, then I think I'm going to have to revise the turn differential from 10 up to 12 rounds. That is the quickest an attack happened, even with my troopers standing directly next to the Sectoid Commander. For my previous tests I was taking into account the number of rounds it took to reach the alien (2).

 

- Zombie

[uriaheep]

If the aliens actually do know the initial locations of all your troops, then I think I'm going to have to revise the turn differential from 10 up to 12 rounds. That is the quickest an attack happened, even with my troopers standing directly next to the Sectoid Commander. For my previous tests I was taking into account the number of rounds it took to reach the alien (2).

 

- Zombie

 

I have had attacks on the fifth turn on a Battleship map against Etherials with all my troops still in the landing craft. My version is the cd with TFTD on it, the one that comes in a box as large and as heavy as a full wardrobe. I'm running no patches or mods.

[Zombie]

Okay, I ran some more experiments on this today.

 

First scenario: Superhuman Sectoid Leader (read: not Commander) at a Terror Ship crash site. After setting it up the same way as the Sectoid Commander in a base, the trials showed the same results.

 

Secong Scenario: Superhuman Ethereal Commander in an alien base. Here again, I had the same set-up as the Sectoid Commander. And of course, I had the identical results as before.

 

My version is the Collector's Edition (1.4). That might have something to do with the differences observed with other versions.

 

Actually, because the first turn belongs to X-COM, you only have 11 full psi-free rounds to do what you need to do. If a psi-attack is going to happen, it will accomplished after the end of round 11. (The attack happens right before X-COM's round 12). I ran many, many trials today and never saw an attack before round 11, so at least for the CE version that number is a good rule of thumb.

 

- Zombie

[NKF]

I've got a dumb question but I'm going to ask it anyway for the sake of clarity: Were these tests done with various psi levels? From nil to 100?

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

I've got a dumb question but I'm going to ask it anyway for the sake of clarity: Were these tests done with various psi levels? From nil to 100?

Yeah, the psi levels of my test soldiers were varied accordingly. The alien psi-stats on the other hand, were kept at their normal levels. I really didn't think about mucking with the alien stats, since that wouldn't produce an accurate picture of what to expect. I mean, how often are you going to run into an Ethereal Commander with a PStr of 10 and a PSkl of 200? Not too often, I'd bet.

 

- Zombie

[Tyro]

I ran some more tests on this today. This time I sequentially edited the Sectoid Commanders intelligence from its starting value of 8 all the way down to 2 (the lowest of any alien). No difference was noted. I even edited intelligence to 1 and 0 (illegal values for an alien). Same thing. Nice thought though, NKF. There must be another variable which governs that delay.

 

LOL, 0 intelligence for the poor 'toid? How does he tie his shoelaces :mad:

[Zombie]

Actually, an alien with a 0 or 8 for Intelligence are equally as smart. According to the OSG, intelligence is:

 

A ranking of the alien's level of intelligence, rated from 2 through 8, with 8 being the most intelligent. This number affects the alien's knowledge of where X-COM units are. After a spotted X-COM unit goes back into cover, the soldier remains spotted by the alien for a number of turns equal to the alien's intelligence. After this period is over and the soldier has remained unspotted, the alien no longer knows the soldier's position.

What I am trying to say is identical aliens in every respect will fight exactly the same. The only role that intelligence plays is remembering where your units are. Not surprisingly, aliens do not wear shoes.

 

- Zombie

[knight_of_the_ravens]

As soon as the aliens spot one of your soldiers, they immediately know where they all are.

very true...i went to an ethereal crash site once, and the first thing i did was unleash my tank of super hell and stuff....and stepped one guy outside the ship to snipe....turn ends and the first move the ethereals make is taking over a soldier INSIDE the ship and making him drop one of my own alien grenades inside my own group....they were all splattered to the ship walls....but it makes me question....why can the alien psionics allow them to make my guys drop my own grenades...but your own psionics can't make the aliens drop or throw grenades???

[Bomb Bloke]

Because in order to make aliens drop grenades, you must access their inventories. In order to access their inventories, the programmers would have had to draw inventory portraits for them. They never got around to it.

 

On the other hand, they didn't quite block you out - if you open the inventory of one of your troopers, you can use the arrows to scroll through your units, and eventually you'll find the alien.

 

So you can use their grenades anyway.

[knight_of_the_ravens]

AHH HAA!!!!....thank u for that info!....so the computer itself knew that flaw the entire time!...it probably would not been able to make that move if such a thing were'nt possible for US to do....so the computer has been pulling some hidden strings behind me then....that cheating bastard!....i'll fry him just like i fried my other PC...

[Zombie]

A long time ago we discussed psionics with aliens with no psionic skill. A question was raised whether an alien which normally has 0 PsiSkill can even psionically attack if its skill was bumped to a non-zero number. Are psi powers only ingrained in certain aliens such as Sectoids and Ethereals?

 

I can't remember if anybody really tested this out. So I just edited all the Floaters in a Large Scout to have Psionic Skill of 100 and left their strength alone. Now I waited. Yep. The Floaters used their new-found psionic abilities against my men. Seems as though psionic attack abilities are built-in for all the aliens regardless of race or rank. As long as Psionic Skill is above 0, the game will allow aliens to use this form of attack. I know we went over this with soldiers before, but not aliens. Still, I found it interesting.

 

- Zombie

[uriaheep]

Have you tried this with a sectopod? I wonder whether they just built it into the game generally or were they more specific?

[Zombie]

Thanks for the suggestion, uriaheep. I took a bunch of my men to an Ethereal base and killed off all the aliens except for a lone Sectopod. Then I edited the Sectopod to have 100 Psionic Skill and waited. Sure enough, the Psi attacks began! Just to make sure there was not a rogue Ethereal somewhere, I killed the Sectopod and the end-of-mission screen popped up. So indeed, psi must be an inherent ability if psi skill > 0.

 

Sadly, I cannot get a HWP to pick up a Psi-Amp, but I suspect that if it could (and psi skill was edited > 0), it would be able to wage attacks too. Yep, even civies with edited psi-powers can use a Psi-Amp!

 

- Zombie

[Bomb Bloke]

If a civilian has psi skill, will it make psi attempts during its turn?

 

What if a solider is mind controlled by aliens, and doesn't hold a psi amp? Can this unit then make attacks?

[Tyro]

Thanks for the suggestion, uriaheep. I took a bunch of my men to an Ethereal base and killed off all the aliens except for a lone Sectopod. Then I edited the Sectopod to have 100 Psionic Skill and waited. Sure enough, the Psi attacks began! Just to make sure there was not a rogue Ethereal somewhere, I killed the Sectopod and the end-of-mission screen popped up. So indeed, psi must be an inherent ability if psi skill > 0.

 

Hmm, a sectopod with psi attacks and its nasty armour. I wonder if a Chrysallid or Sectopod will be worse now?

 

Sadly, I cannot get a HWP to pick up a Psi-Amp, but I suspect that if it could (and psi skill was edited > 0), it would be able to wage attacks too. Yep, even civies with edited psi-powers can use a Psi-Amp!

 

If a civvie is given >0 psi skill and stunned (this IIRC turns them to the alien's side) would it start using them against you?

[uriaheep]

Hmm, a sectopod with psi attacks and its nasty armour. I wonder if a Chrysallid or Sectopod will be worse now?

 

A Chrysallid with all that movement and psi attacks, Mmmm I'm outta here.