Zeno Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 Veteran, I haven't seen the dat-cannister information yet. I really need to look at more of the fan fiction here. Sluissi, I have an alternate opinion on XCOM's whole origin, explaining the names, the minimal funding, the free hospital stays, the huge salaries, and other in-game observations--but it doesn't quite fit in with the existing timeline information, or even the game history according to the creators. As such, I won't go into it here. But if I ever become inspired, I'll stick my version in the fan fiction section. ------ Last evening, I remembered an old technique I'd used for winning tough missions (unfortunately, I remembered too late last night). I thought I'd add it here. In warfare, it is easier to defend a fortified position than to attack a prepared, superior-equipped enemy. This is particularly true when you are outnumbered, as is often the case when fighting aliens. The XCOM games generally require you to hunt down and eliminate the enemy--XCOM soldiers advance, and the aliens defend. Many have pointed out, however, that waiting outside the UFO often draws out a majority of aliens, who come to investigate. It has also been stated that waiting in or around the transport for several turns will bring many aliens to you. There is another technique for ensuring all aliens come to you (except for the rare, specifically-programmed one-location aliens). If you manage to stun an alien, you can pick up the alien and take it to your transport (or some location on the map with a single entry). Use unarmed soldiers or HWPs to seal off the entry--effectively enclosing the stunned alien's body in the room. (Remember to turn HWPs away from the alien, to avoid reaction shots). The next several turns involve setting up your defensive position. (I won't describe defensive strategies here, as this is a separate topic.) All defensive positions should be out of the line of sight of the stunned alien's body. When the alien wakes up, it will spot the soldiers/HWPs guarding and blocking it's exit. It will also be unarmed. However, the action of "spotting" your forces will "awaken" all of the mobile aliens on the map, both inside and outside the UFO. Over the next several turns, they will take a direct path to intercept and engage the spotted soldiers--often rather conveniently using all of their TUs in their haste. One final note: It is important to use this tactic very carefully if any aliens (including the one you stun) have psi ability. You must be positive that all guards are highly resistant to psi attacks. Note that HWPs are immune to psi. ------ Regarding defensive strategies. Is there any interest in another Chapter 3 section (Field Tactics) that emphasizes purely defensive tactics? I know XCOM is an offensive game, tactically (even on base defend missions), however there are numerous cases where defensive positioning becomes important. --defending the landing zone--sniping aliens that leave the UFO doors--tactical withdrawals (another topic which may require a devoted section in tactics)--defending the Access Lift in base attacks before advancing on the hangar--uncovering an unexpected group of aliens heading your direction--etc. Personally, I find incendiary ammunition invaluable in defensive tactics (I rarely use incendiary except for defense). Proximity grenades are the key to defensive equipment, of course. Setting up proper "reaction shot" positions requires some thought. More important, using effective "spot-shoot-hide" tactics and combination tactics with motion scanners. The most advanced advice should cover timed grenades and explosives, set to detonate at the end of the alien's turn in locations where the aliens are likely to be standing. --Zeno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman42 Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 Wrote a section on "Clean-up" during sleepless period last night. No time to post it right now; have to type up this analysis. Again. Gaargh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastiaan Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Looks good Spaceman, great idea, maybe people will finally use tactics NKF, do you make your avatars yourself, their always very cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Zeno - I've used the "enclose the alien fool" tactic before. It's pretty cool, but just watch for Blaster Bombs! I don't think the aliens care about their comrade in the middle. I was also thinking, when you place a proxy right i front of the UFO door... wouldn't it explode when the alien reaches the tile behind the door? This would mean it wouldn't do any damage. Therefore, shouldn't a proxy be place one space away from the door? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKF Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Bastiaan: Yes Fox: Precisely, the proxy mines's detection radius also ignores walls. So, for doors, one tile away is the minimum effective distance. 1 turn grenades right in front of the door can sometimes be effective -- IF the door is opened during the alien's turn. You'd have to time it just right though. Speaking of blaster bombs, I think someone mentioned it in this thread already, but I thought it was worth repeating -- it falls in the later addendums to the field manual. If you find a solitary alien carrying a blaster bomb and you can't really shoot back at it, or don't have anything precise to get it by the end of the turn, you can save yourself by ending your turn right next to it. Stupid as the aliens AI may be, they are not as stupid as their X-Com: Apocalypse counterparts with regards to grenade and guided rocket use! (not counting the stun bombs or rocket launchers) - NKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 So do you think they would BB their friend in the middle of the "enclose the alien fool" circle? I mean, say they shoot one of the guys... wait. The aliens don't use other alien's info for targetting do they? They have to actually see the unit themselves, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyfishGreen Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 The aliens don't use other alien's info for targetting do they?I think on advanced levels they do. Someone in the Psionics thread (actually probably earlier in this thread) said the same AI applies to psionics at Veteran levels - if one alien sees your soldier, the commander can target it psionically - and at Superhuman, revealing one of your soldiers reveals all of them. No confirmation if this is true from the code, more field experiments are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeno Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 I thought I'd throw in another remark on grenades. My rookies didn't appreciate the test method I used, but it was nonetheless effective... If multiple grenades are lying about the terrain, all set to go off simultaneously, the order of detonation is from right corner to left corner, then from top corner to bottom corner, then from lowest elevation to highest-elevation. The order in which the grenades were thrown or dropped, and the type of grenade, are irrelevant. After all grenades have detonated, then sliding doors close. The door closing event seems to occur in the same order as the grenades (right to left, top to bottom, ground to sky). If someone could verify my results, I'd appreciate it. My testing process was in the field and under fire, which isn't often the best location for conducting experiments. The important thing to remember is that grenades go off according to location, not the order thrown (this is important for when you've landed a grenade a bit off target, and need to throw another grenade that detonates first...destroying both the original target and the errant grenade). The other important thing to remember is, as NKF implied, that grenades detonate before doors close. Thus, soldiers should not drop grenades next to sliding doors with the expectation that the door will close first (and protect them from the blast). Soldiers can, however, place grenades timed to "1" next to doors they expect aliens to use. The grenade will detonate during the alien's turn, and will detonate before the door closes (assuming an alien opens the door on it's turn). Soldiers can also drop grenades primed to "1" on the other side of sliding doors they use for cover. The door will close at the end of the XCOM turn, the grenade will detonate at the end of the Alien turn. This tactic is not recommended if an alien is likely to open said door on the alien's turn... Needless to say, if the door is not opened, then the grenade will have no effect on anything behind the door (unless the grenade blows up the door and/or walls, of course). After re-reading this post, I can't think of a more unclear way to explain this. Hopefully you can trace through the jumble and understand it... ------ Fox and JellyFishGreen, I'm interested in the BB targetting question. For normal weapons, the alien must have a direct line of fire (or grenade toss arc) to the target. Just like soldiers, aliens do NOT need to be within sight range to fire. However, they DO need a clear, unobstructed shot. Therefore, it is best to play "enclose the alien fool" in locations that are not easily spotted (i.e. inside the transport, when the transport exit is adjacent to a map edge). This is true for all difficulty levels. Aliens don't have magic bullets like some humans have. Psi attacks do not require an unobstructed shot. If any one alien can see a soldier, then all aliens with psi attacks can attack that soldier. To clarify JellyFishGreen's comment, at Superhuman level a soldier that is spotted by ANY alien, ANY time during the combat, can be targetted with psi attacks for the remainder of combat. A soldier that kills (or stuns, or fires at and misses) any alien, even with a one-shot kill in the back of an alien's head from sniping range, can also be targetted by ANY alien with psi-attacks for the remainder of combat. However, on Superhuman, if an individual soldier is never spotted by any alien, is never spotted by any mind controlled soldier, and never attacks any alien, then that soldier will NOT be targetted with psi attacks. I have not tested psi attacks on lower levels, though others have reported that they occur with less frequency, and that it seems to depend on line of sight. BBs...I'm not sure. Soldiers can fire BBs blindly, and soldiers can fire BBs at a target that any other soldier spots. Aliens do not seem to fire BBs blindly, but I'm not sure if they'll target a soldier spotted by a different alien. Any testers? --Zeno ------------- (EDIT/Addendum) I don't want to double-post, so I'm adding another "tactics manual" item here. Several people have mentioned that taking a group of Rookies into combat results in lots of dead Rookies. They panic and go berserk with annoying frequency, even if they have maximum initial bravery. If you lose 4 out of 14 rookies, and have no alien kills, then the remainder are ready to bolt. However, one thing to remember is that higher-rank soldiers give a morale bonus to all lower-rank soldiers. If the higher-rank soldier is killed, then all lower-rank soldiers will be affected with a big negative to morale. The bonus (and penalty) is greater if the difference in rank is greater. A Sergeant helps, but isn't quite effective enough. However, if you bring 1 Captain (or even better, a Colonel or the Commander) along with 13 Rookies in a Skyranger, your morale problems are over! The officer stays in the 'ranger, providing moral support and encouragement-via-radio to the rookies (he's a strategic officer, not a field officer). The officer provides several benefits: --By staying in the 'ranger, the officer can abort the mission if there is a CF/SNAFU/FUBAR situation (choose your acronym). --By staying in the 'ranger, the officer is unlikely to be killed--thus, the rookies retain their morale benefit throughout the mission. --Excess weapons, grenades, and such can be left in the 'ranger. Rookies may not have the strength to carry everything. The officer (with a decent level of strength) can throw equipment out of the ranger to rookies in the field. --The rookies will gain much more experience, as they will make all the shots and all the kills. This keeps your officer from stealing all the experience with her superior skills. --The officer's skills do not matter in the slightest. This is an excellent position for that "why did XCOM promote that guy again?" officer! Finally, a use for the useless officers! --By only having one officer, you never suffer morale penalties for losing officers in the field. If you have a Colonel, a couple Captains, four Sergeants, and 7 Rookies, the Rookies will start to panic when you lose a Sergeant or two, or a Captain. If you have one officer, and the officer is alive, you can lose 7-8 Rookies before they start to panic. The only problem is ensuring the officer survives. If all 13 Rookies are alive and well, but the officer goes down...expect utter chaos. Still, I've found it is a very useful tactic for training Rookies, when I'm trying to get a good second-string Skyranger platoon, experienced base defenders, or a decent selection of replacement soldiers. Note that you can use this tactic well into the game. 25 Squaddies and 1 Commander who stays on the ship works very, very effectively. The Squaddies in the line of fire won't suffer huge morale losses when their buddies die. In addition, Squaddies in XCOM can (and often do) have better stats than the officers (unless you fire or kill low-stat officers). Basically, the idea is to minimize morale penalties (which occur when soldiers die, so you want low rank soldiers in the line of fire). And, you want to maximize morale bonuses (which occur when officers stay alive, so you want officers to be safe throughout the battle). ------ Many others have indicated that they prefer their highest ranking officers to have the highest stats. I have not found any good strategic reasons for this (seems to be more of a personal preference, or ego thing). Does anyone have a good counter-argument? --Zeno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Demi-Godly One Posted August 7, 2003 Share Posted August 7, 2003 Well I can think of how it could be useful to have an officer with high stats. Lets say an officer is in a skyranger twidling his/her thumbs with no one around to protect him/her. Then all of a sudden an alien pops up out of nowhere. Since your officer is going to have to kill the alien to stay alive wouldn't it be better that (s)he has the most stats on your team since (s)he is the most useful on your team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alitorious Posted August 12, 2003 Share Posted August 12, 2003 If anyone's interested, I created a new "military-ish" type report on the MediKit in the Fanfic forum, under the "Data Canister" thread. I'm open to suggestions, in case anyone wants to give them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Privateer Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 About officers with high stats. I'm guilty of this, but I can explain, really I usually take an officer and two sergeants along with the soldiers. The officer stays in the 'ranger, while sergeants lead two teams on the ground. BUT, although sergeants are on the ground, I keep them a bit behind other soldiers, in the relative safety. So, the troops are sorted in such a way that the greater their chance to get hurt, the less important they are to overall morale. Another reason for this formation is that sergeants and the officer are the only ones I can trust to not panic. Well, to an extent, of course. So, if going gets tough and my squaddies take heavy casualties and begin to snap, I at least have three men and my HWP(s) to fall back on and win the day, or at least make the retreat more of less orderly. Paniced squaddies will recover eventually and be able to fall back, but only if somebody is there to engage the enemy while most of my force is running around scared witless. Otherwise, they'd likely end up dead. Perhaps you can argue that it's not a very likely situation to happen, but my gut tells me it's important to have a couple of trusted men with good skills. So, obviously, since my officer and sergeants are planned to fight and not just fight, but save a FUBAR situation against all odds, I prefer them to have high stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeno Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Okay, I may have spoken too hastily. Obviously, it is better to have officers with high stats than low stats. That's true for all of your soldiers--higher stats equals greater survival odds. However, I was trying to show that an officer with low stats could still be effective for his morale-boosting capability. In addition, attaining higher stats requires soldiers to be in the field (usually), killing aliens. Example #1: High-rank officer with low stats. Squaddies and rookies with low stats. Officer goes into the field, gets killed. Morale penalty for death results in a bunch of scared rookies and squaddies. Aliens kill panicked soldiers. Mission fails. Example #2: High-rank officer with low stats. Squaddies and rookies with low stats. Officer stays in the transport. Half of the squaddies and rookies die, but morale remains high. Mission is completed successfully, despite many losses. Example #3: High-rank officer with high stats. Squaddies and rookies with low stats. Officer goes into the field, kills many aliens. If officer survives, mission is successful, there are few XCOM casualties, squaddies and rookies gain little or no experience, and retain low stats. If officer is killed, mission fails. Example #4: High-rank officer with high stats. Squaddies and rookies with low stats. Officer stays in the transport. Half of the squaddies and rookies die, but morale remains high. Mission is completed successfully, despite many losses. Example #5: High-rank officer with low or high stats. Squaddies with high stats. Officer goes into the field. Squaddies complete the mission with few losses. Mission is completed successfully. If the officer dies, one of the squaddies is promoted to officer. Example #6: High-rank officer with low or high stats. Squaddies with high stats. Officer stays in the transport. Squaddies complete the mission with few losses. Mission is completed successfully. ------ If all of your soldiers have high stats, then this really isn't a concern. If the officers die, they can take the morale penalty and still win the mission. However, if you are at the beginning of the game, and XCOM has promoted several low-stat officers...what should you do? Use those low-stat officers as cannon fodder, getting them killed so your high-stat squaddies can replace them? Fire the low-stat officers so you don't suffer morale penalties when they die? My argument is specific to examples #2 and 4. When you're still using rookies, and your squaddies aren't perfect. An officer who stays in the transport gives a morale boost, allowing the rookie soldiers to gain experience, kills, and win a mission despite heavy casualties. An officer with low stats going into the field is a bad idea when you use rookies, as the officer's death results in mass panic (as in example #1). Likewise, an officer with high stats going into the field is a bad idea, as the officer will probably get most of the shots and kills (and thus, most of the experience, as in example #3). So. I agree with Demi-Godly One and Privateer (welcome to Privateer!) that high-stat officers are more useful than low-stat officers. But if you're stuck with rookies and low-stat officers on your team (as you may be the first few months, after any particularly devastating missions, and when you're training a second team) I believe they can be used effectively. ------ Finally, Alitorious, I read your medi-kit description. It covers the equipment well enough. The only odd characteristic you didn't cover is that (for conscious soldiers) it has a range of 1 meter. As NKF said in an earlier post, it works through walls. However, we could chalk that up to a bug and ignore the exploit in any official description. You should perhaps mention in a footnote that it works on all known alien life forms as well as humans, since waking up stunned aliens can have tactical advantages. --Zeno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKF Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I think a separate manual for the unorthodox strategies and peculiar use of weaponry and items might be handy. It would be very difficult to explain things like how you can detect an unit's vital statistics through walls with medikits, or how you can push items through ceilings, or floating/walking through certain not-entirely-solid walls. If anything, it would be very difficult to come up with some form of reasonable explanation for these unusual activities. ---Regarding rank: Also, keep in mind rank works both ways. Alien grunts also feel the effects when their commanders and leaders die. If you have a choice between leaders or the grunts, go for the leaders to break the spirit of the grunts. I've often had hopeless situations with my squad being severely decimated, only to have the few remaining survivors turn the odds entirely into their favour by starting a widespread panic after killing a few ranked aliens. - NKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Privateer Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I totally agree with Zeno in that putting officers at risk is a very bad idea. On a mission where casualties are likely officer stays in the transport. Like you said, an officer down means that pretty much the whole unit is down. I try to get the officer some kills from safety, though. My reasoning is, basicly, that soldiers on the front line will have plenty of chances to score hits and raise their stats, but officers don't. So, I give them shots just to make sure they don't get too fat. Also, since the officer stays in the transport, (s)he gets to provide artillery support with the blaster launcher, scoring some easy hits. BTW, as NKF pointed out aliens too panic when their leader dies. It's also worth pointing out that their leader rarely leaves the farthest room in the spaceship, so the leader dies last. I think that's part of the reason aliens so rarely panic, unless they're one of the last remaining on the map. Well, that and their insanely high bravery. --- More on topic, though, I liked the field manual. Congrats to the author(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10of40 Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 EDIT: A moron am I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10of40 Posted September 8, 2003 Share Posted September 8, 2003 Quick note: If something happens to take out the road beneath the HWP, the tank is screwed (IIRC). Another useful piece of strategy: Hmm... X-COM is not an Equal Opportunities Employer. I review each and every soldier I hire. If the stats aren't to my liking (particularly bravery and PSI), I give him the boot. Better to only keep the best and not get the wusses promoted.Sure, I might be a bit short-handed for a mission, but hey, it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman42 Posted September 15, 2003 Author Share Posted September 15, 2003 Random update:https://nfact.mspencer.net/FMArt.jpgWoo! Cocktail-napkin art for the FM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alitorious Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Okay, I added an addendum to that medi-kit (in real-time, too! ).Actually, are we so sure that medi-kits working on aliens is really a bug? Maybe it's a small hint to the sinister truth... :o And I think medi-kits working through walls is a bug, and as such is excluded purposely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKF Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Those sketches bring joy into this dark, dismal, existence of mine. The unorthodox uses of the various tools in the game (i mean, if they cannot be rationally explained, or just doesn't make any sense - like the medikit-through-the-wall bug) would be best left in a suppliment guide (one that freely breaks down the fourth wall). - NKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jman4117 Posted September 16, 2003 Share Posted September 16, 2003 Maybe the medikit has really long tubes on the needles. Or maybe they are designed to be pushed through a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Privateer Posted September 18, 2003 Share Posted September 18, 2003 Hmm, who says med-kits have to be physical, like 20th century kits? In fact, I think they are different because it takes quite a bit of research to get them. I have seen people remove pains by just hovering their hands a couple of inches over the aching site. They call it biofields or something like that and can't quite explain how it works, but it does. It is also used to find underground water, graves, etc, but that's besides the point. Perhaps the X-Com med-kits are based on application of this biofield as well. Then it's not surprising they should work through walls. Of course, realisticly, I doubt this is what the developers had in mind, but this would provide a pretty good explaination if the trick was to be included into the manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JellyfishGreen Posted October 29, 2003 Share Posted October 29, 2003 Medikits: There seems to be more and more news lately about the application of electric fields in medical science. First pacemakers electrically stimulate the heart controls, which we've used for a while, now experimental implants can electrically stop seizures or suppress appetite by stimulating the right nerves. So I'm going to throw my support behind properly applied medikit electricity stimulating the body's damage control system (clotting and regrowth) and endorphin response. And/or being usable through walls, and maybe the prox grenade using these biofields to detect through walls instead of ultrasound. Officers: The field manual should definitely have a blurb like the ones below relating morale upkeep to officer safety. And, as NKF says, it works both ways! Shoot the alien commander to increase alien panic. Editor: Spaceman! Could you fill in the WWW section of your forum profile to make the Manual easier to download please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guderian Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Nice sketches! I'd suggest one little change: https://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/389714/FMArt2.JPG In the formation on the left, the alien will be able to see and fire at the southernmost soldier as soon as it opens the door, without necessarily stepping outside the craft. On the right, all the soldiers are (ideally) out of the line of sight until the alien steps outside, at which point the two guys right beside the door can give it the business along with everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NKF Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Good suggestion. Although, if you have enough soldiers, it doesn't matter too much, as everyone would be able to cover each other. But keeping everyone out of line of site is perhaps the safest method of doing it. Just watch out that the soldiers aren't exactly at opposite ends, as friendly fire can hurt a lot. Sometimes the aliens will stop moving after a while. If this happens, placing someone in a direct line with the door(as in the left illustration) often lures the aliens out. You can use HWPs for this, so that's what I'd suggest you do it with. But once the aliens are on the move again, move your unit to a safer location. - NKF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman42 Posted November 3, 2003 Author Share Posted November 3, 2003 ... Yeah, I'll do that. Probably tomorrow, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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