Ammo shortages

[Dalerian]

Will ammo problems plague me forever?

 

I'm running desperately short of ammo, and there's none for sale.

I'm rationing it by giving people a wider range of weapons, hiding around corners and only shooting at point-blank range and using aimed fire as much as possible.

 

I'm still running out. And this is only the first week.

 

Do the suppliers ramp up the goods soon? Can I research ammo-free weapons? Is there a trick (such as unloading weapons before the end of the battle) that further reduces my use?

 

I considered raiding the cult ... but raiding would itself use ammo...

 

If it gets much worse, all troops will be primarily (only?) armed with stun grapples. Yikes!

[NKF]

Are you playing in turn based or real time? Well, it doesn't make too much of a difference, but it's easier to save ammo in turn based - particularly because you get the time to think before you pull the trigger. In real-time, it isn't that far off either, but you do tend to get into the habit of just letting your soldiers fire off ammo with wild abandon.

 

The only real way of conserving your ammo is to use your head and make better use of what little you have. Oh, do go full auto - but only at the right time. And do not waste your time firing with aimed shots over long distances. Use cover - retreat if you have to - and get into medium range of your opponents before opening fire to ensure much more accuracy.

 

---

 

For real time combat, consider using the stun grapple as your secondary weapon. This'll cut your ammo down by half, but you're going to have to get used to fighting in close quarters. This is no problem at all, as the effects are devestating on anthropods, spitters, hyperworms, brainsuckers and human guards. Less so on multiworms, but even so, you'll be able to knock it out a lot faster. Works wonders all the way through the game, however it fails against shielded units. Or if you don't mind dual weilding, you can use it in raids on the cult and get your enemy to arm you with their own weapons.

 

If you don't mind raiding Marsec with stun grapples, try searching for a power sword. It's pure evil when up close and on full-auto - far worse than the devestator cannons. Pure evil I tell you.

 

Raiding the cult for ammo is good - but who says you have to win the battle? Rush in, kill off - no, better yet, stun - as many cultists as you can, scoop up as much as you can and exit. Quick and simple, and you'll probably have picked up a few plasma guns.

 

Wonderful weapons these. Small, compact, one-handed, more power and much faster then the sniper rifle but not quite as accurate. Best of all, it's got a huge ammo clip. You'll only get to buy them after the first week is over, but if you raid the cult, you'll be able to get them on day 1.

 

- NKF

[Dalerian]

Thanks for the advice.

 

I've now raided the cult 3 times today, and marginally come out ahead on ammo.

I have found a plasma pistol - but without any ammo. I'm heading back to seek some. (I'd love to know how they get their recruits to the temple so fast! I've hit the site game-minutes apart, and found a full complement of guards each time.)

 

Where I have come out well ahead is on experience. Each raid has pushed up stats, and the minor wounds I'm taking from grenades are raising health. Selling that unit of psyclone from each raid has raised much needed moolah, too.

 

A few questions arise from your posting...

 

Why do suggest stunning cultists ather than kill them?

 

In Xcom1, 2 handed weapons had an accuracy penalty if one had was carrying something else. Does that still apply here? (I'm currently single-wielding those nice machine guns that do soo much for my accuracy.)

 

It seems that I start a second battle with the same ammo I had left in a clip at the end of the previous one - is that an accurate perception?

 

Dal.

[NKF]

All battles have random guards, so no matter how bad you attack the cult, they'll have renovated, rebuilt, rearmed and hired a fresh batch of guards every time you attack the building.

 

---

 

I suggest stunning cultists because the stun grapple packs a huge punch for a non-lethal weapon. Unfortunately, it can only deal 80 points of stun damage to any unit at any given time. Luckily, practically every human guard in the city doesn't have that much health to resist the paralysis. So a few quick hits with the stun grapple will send any human guard into a deep sleep very quickly.

 

Now, once they're down, all their weapons are ripe for the picking. Also, I didn't say you couldn't kick them while they're down.

 

See, the faster they collapse, the less ammo they'll use, and the less danger they'll pose to you for the time being.

 

 

---

 

Yes, two handed weapons do suffer a penalty when you carry two of them at the same time. But as most of the weapons in Apocalypse are very effective in close quarters, the loss in accuracy isn't so bad. Two weapons will effectively double your firepower, which more than makes up for it.

 

With the M4000 machine guns are an interesting case. They're so fast that using two on full auto is pointless. But consider using them on snap or aimed. You'll be firing bullets at high speed almost as if you're on full automatic and maintain moderate accuracy (try it). Compare that to just one machine gun on full auto with horrible accuracy.

 

If you need the accuracy of one weapon, you can always halt, drop your second gun, fire off a few shots, pick up your second gun and move on.

 

But having played this game for a while now, I suggest you always try to get into medium to close range for attacks with weapons that require ammo and try to avoid long range combat unless it's absolutely necessary (i.e. there's a popper approaching). Long range combat almost always wastes ammo. Once you get the alien disrupter guns, you can cut loose a bit.

 

Doubling your firepower also means you'll be doubling your bullet consumption. But that's not so bad if every bullet hits, right?

 

Using two weapons is only really effective in real-time combat. In turn based, its usefulness wavers, and can only really work if you use shift to force an attack.

 

 

---

 

Ammo in Apocalypse is counted by the bullet rather than by the clip. Yes, you buy by the clip, but that just means you're buying so much of that particular bullet type for each clip you purchase.

 

Now, if your M4000 uses up half of its ammo. By the time you return home, your soldiers will refill the M4000 and any other partial clips in their possession from storage with the exact amount that they spent - given that there's enough left in storage. (Note, they'll only refill the clip if it's less than the standard amount of bullets that are meant to be in that clip. If it's above it, they'll not do anything. And before you ask what I mean by that, try this: when you're in the battlescape, drag an identical clip onto another. Then examine the ammo content of each clip. You can discard the dud clip by dragging it onto your gun.)

 

- NKF

 

P. S: Just to dispel any further fears you may have regarding the stun grapple - each attack from the stun grapple can provide the exact same experience that you'd receive from a M4000 machine gun bullet. So you will definitely not be losing any experience from using them.

 

P. P. S: The stun grapple only works against units that aren't wearing disrupter shields.

 

P. P. P. S: The ammo stacking that I mentioned earlier: I must clarify a bit. Several bullets stacked into a single ammo clip will still weigh as much as all those clips. So don't think you'll be able to stack 20 large rockets and be able to walk afterwards. All you're doing is compressing them into a single clip. Also note, the game breaks them down into their individual clips if you remove it in the cityscape equipment screen.

[FullAuto]

If you care that much about killing CoS, use the stun grapple, nick their gear and then drop a grenade on them. I keep running short of ammo too, but it's due to me firing on full auto (hehe). Only weapon I use at long range is the laser sniper rifle, and my soldiers are always knelt or lying down. Anything else, you need to be fairly close. Keep full auto fire for extreme close ranges, and bear in mind the M4000 isn't the only good gun (I ignored several plasma weapons for DAYS!).

[Dalerian]

If you care that much about killing CoS ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't particularly care about killing them - as long as they stop shooting me, I don't mind. Especially if they stop shooting with those damned heavy launchers!

I was only surprised at a tactic to deliberately stun - though if it doesn't use ammo, that's a vote in its favour.

 

I've just found some pink/purple beam weapons. I'm hoping that (as beam weapons) they solve the ammo problem.

 

They were found on the bodies of aliens who emerged from a flying purple-pancake that I shot down. (At great cost, I might add. *Growl*)

Given the cost in hoverbikes & hovercraft, I really hope the pancake, weapons or -something- involved turns out to be worthwhile... Ah well, I can always send the invoice to the CoS, I guess.

[Dalerian]

Wow. Thanks for a long post packed with yet more great advice. I wish I'd found these forums before I gave up on Apoc last time around.

 

- NKF

P. S: Just to dispel any further fears you may have regarding the stun grapple - each attack from the stun grapple can provide the exact same experience that you'd receive from a M4000 machine gun bullet. So you will definitely not be losing any experience from using them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This was going to be my next question.

As X-Com1 had a "hit" XP and a "kill" XP, I thought I'd lose XP by missing out on the "kill" points.

[NKF]

Pancake? You mean the fish-shaped weapon, don't you?

 

Well, if it fires pink, then yes, your ammo problems are solved. That's the disrupter gun. Basically a slightly large and slightly more powerful version of the plasma gun with 'recharging' ammo. Decent weapon. But the one that comes after it, the Devestator (you'll know it when you find one), is much more favourable (that is to say, once you get to use them against the aliens). It's like a long range variant of the power sword. The power sword's still better at close range, but the devestator - oh you've just got to see a your selected squad firing two devestators each in the same direction. Amazing.

 

One other weapon that'll help you out immensely is the toxigun. The toxigun is an X-Com manufactured weapon, so you make the ammo yourself. To get it, you'd need to get the alien life cycle by capturing live specimens of all the aliens in the multiworm life cycle and then research the large bio lab. This weapon only works well against aliens - and it bypasses disrupter shields just like stun gas. You'll have three strengths of ammunition, but no matter what strength you use, they're deadly to aliens. This more than makes up for the pathetically small ammo clip size.

 

The toxigun and the devestator cannon are bound to make up the majority of your weapons in the later stages of the game.

 

- NKF

[Dalerian]

Pancake? You mean the fish-shaped weapon, don't you?

- NKF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The pancake turned out to be a "Type 3 UFO", according to my categoricists. I mean scientists.

 

Yes, the fish-thing does fire pink. I'm torn between relief at limitless ammo and a shade of disappointment that the weapons looks so wimpy. A Heavy Plasma had attitude. This thing looks like a crochette tool.

 

Still ... if it hits hard and allows me to spray damage through large amounts of aliens - I don't care if it's got "I love Brainsuckers" or "Poppers are People, too" plastered over the barrel...

[Jasonred]

Wait for it. There is NOTHING like watching a dozen or so agents with double devastators, staring at a COS doorway from the other end of the room, and a cultist pops his head through in RT. It's actually funnier when your team is inaccurate... Colateral damage anyone?

 

What I did to overcome ammo shortages: Raid the COS in TB. With one machine gun in each hand, and Auto-Fire. EAT POINT BLANK SHOTS, COS!!! ... the fact that it only costs 1 TU per shot is just... hmm!

 

The IMPORTANT advantage in raiding COS is: you can launch for another mission immediately. Note that your agents are automatically rearmed, BUT not IMMEDIATELY. You can actually send them out on another mission after captured goods have arrived in base, but before being rearmed. Note that you had better manually rearm them then, or there's a chance you'll go into battle with only 2-3 bullets per gun... not good!

 

Another thing about COS. They're wimpy. So you can raid them using the dregs of equipment that you have. Buy the weapons you wouldn't normally use, and kill COS with them. Great!

[Dalerian]

Wimpy... Hmm.

Yes, they die quickly when shot. But they have homing area-effect weapons that tend to kill my mega-pol armoured troups in one hit.

 

Maybe they'll appear wimpy to me when I can ignore their weaponry - at the moment, I'm lucky to come out of a raid without a death.

[NKF]

Megapol armour is quite hardy - as long as the soldier wearing it has lots of health. Androids for example, are very good soldiers at the very start of the game, mostly due to the fact that they've usually got more health than your human and hybrid rookies.

 

--

 

My advice would be to get up close to the cultists by waiting near a corner and letting them rush right into a close range full auto ambush.

 

I was able to win a mission in one of the temples with three androids by finding a passage that leads off the map, and then waiting around the corner for the cultist to come by. I had my androids stationed in a small triangle so that the cultists would not see them when coming around the corner until it was too late The leading android armed with dual swords and the ones at the back with a mix of swords and grapples.

 

If the swords didn't kill the cultists outright, the stun grapple would knock them senseless. If they got up again, well, they got chopped to bits. While I've had this work several times before, it's incredibly risky due to the amount of equipment that piles up in the corner. One stray explosive and ... well, you get the picture.

 

This strategy does extend well to other places in the temple and to many other maps. In the temple in particular, one good example would be having soldiers stationed on either side of the large doors to most of the themed areas, with a weapon and a grapple. Or at the top of a small lift.

 

- NKF

 

P.S: Just to clarify - the swords at the back of the group would never reach the cultists rushing around the corner. They were mainly spares for the one in the front.

[Dalerian]

I just found one place where this has backfired on me. *wry grin*

 

In a warehouse, where "ground" is level 4. I heard an alien in the lift shaft, and set an ambush outside the door. Fish-wielding Alien walked out, was diced. (So far, so good.)

Before I could blink, the alien -behind- him did -something-. (I never saw what.)

When the screams and smoke cleared, half of the ambush party were on the ground, four floors below, with critical wounds. The alien involved was diced for its efforts - but I have 3 extra people in my medi-bays.

 

I'd love to know what the alien did - they each only had fish on them - so I don't know how it took out half the floor like that...

[NKF]

Sounds like your first meeting with the popper. Think: Bomb + legs.

 

They're not as bad as a direct hit by a vortex mine, but they're just as lethal.

 

If you're using disrupter guns, I would probably suggest stepping a few extra paces back from the door. This should give you more time to react if you see any poppers, and it should provide you with a bit more cover.

 

Don't be afraid to run if the forces making their way through the door start to overwhelm you. Drop a smoke grenade and leg it to the nearest shelter.

 

- NKF

[Dalerian]

That makes sense - I didn't even think of a popper. I saw the 2 Anthropods, and assumed they'd been alone.

Hmm. Those poppers -are- nasty critters, then. I've always taken them out with distance fire before now, and not really seen them as much of a threat. My respect for them has just grown remarkably...

[Jasonred]

Oh, poppers can be BAD. In enclosed spaces, they're horrible! Since you don't have disrupters yet, you might have to pull out stun grapples for those poppers... most other things will just blow them up. Which is bad, if you're at close range! BAD!!!

 

Fight cultists in Turn based. The temple layout is simple, so you don't suffer much from the "alien hiding in the corner" syndrome.

 

Those homing things are Marsec Missile Launchers. YES, Megapol Armor is hardy stuff. ... but it's not gonna do well against those whopping large rockets.

 

BTW, you can buy and use those too, you know. No research needed, so if you just pick it up off the dead cultist... heh heh heh.

 

And you can NEVER ignore those large rockets. NEVER. If it wasn't for ammo shortages and other even better weapons, I'd put those things as one of the most devastating weapons in the game. I'd say how to deal with them, but that utilizes real time and some artifacts you don't have yet. (spoilers)

[Blehm 98]

Marsec launchers? Ammo shortages? I have about 70 of them in stores and about 10 of them in use on every mission(the large rockets mostly, i only ahve about 20 IC rockets)

 

the small launcher can be evil, but i also have about a hundred rounds of them in stores

 

Also, don't forget about boomeroids, they aren't -too- powerful on their own but when you see anthropods tossing 2, 3, 4, 5 of them one after another at your soldiers you learn respect for them

[NKF]

Personally, I use boomeroids to enhance explosive piles.

 

I also use them as quick blast-on-impact grenades, but if you can master them and not end up running away from your own boomeroid, they are very effective indeed.

 

- NKF

[Jasonred]

It's not how many large rockets you can BUY. It's how many one soldier can carry. ...Erm, wait, I forgot, this ain't X-com 1 or 2, you can carry significantly more...

 

Still... I mean it's not one of those weapons you can use like the devastator, carry 2 on each person and autofire demolish the entire landscape thing. At least, not for more than 1-2 missions...

 

 

... Enhance explosive piles? Erm... I dunno about this one. Personally, I found that camping at certain points tends to lead to more than large enough piles of stuff... I've never found a pressing need to make an even LARGER explosion...

[NKF]

Well, you can always do with more firepower.

 

It's good for enhancing a trap to quickly take out a hefty opponent you know is approaching. Multiworms for example, or Megaspawn.

 

Find or make piles of equipment (preferably explosive) + one blast-on-impact Megapol AP grenade or another cheap explosive = nasty explosion + stun gas/anti-alien gas/smoke/incendiary effect (if weapons that produce these effects were in the pile).

 

Lots of little explosions like this won't have the same destructive force as a single vortex mine - so it won't destroy an alien spawn pad - but a lot of a little can make a lot.

 

I imagine situations where you fool a group of aliens and make them pass near or over a pile of explosives. A quick AP grenade toss, autocannon HE shell, or a conveniently placed terran proximity mine is all it needs.

 

Or imagine a chain reaction. Mine the whole area with explosive and make sure that they are within each others' blast radius. Set one off and the whole room explodes. Fun. Especially if the room's swarming with easy to kill enemies. A bit silly, I know, but something that can be done. Falls flat if there are enemies that know how to grab everything that's not bolted down (i.e. anthropods, skeletoids and rent-a-cops)

 

Boomeroids are just handy because they are a bit more common than vortex mines.

 

- NKF

 

P. S: For heavy launchers (and pretty much any launcher variant), you should ALWAYS manually fire these and make sure the soldier carrying it is set to fire only on your command. Take your time and fire them at the most convenient moment - in other words, the moment where you can get the most destruction, or hilarity out of the situation. Oh, and just FYI - all launchers in the game are homing, so your soldier's personal accuracy plays no role whatsoever (yes, I checked). So if you're looking for a rocket soldier, look for a beefy soldier as opposed to an accurate soldier.

[Jasonred]

Haha. The worst explosion I've seen was caused by me guarding the exit of an alien ship. Forgot which one. Anyhow, plenty of Anthropds and Skeletoids lugging premium gear. Vortexs and boomeroids and devastators. Huge pile of munitions builty up in that area.

 

Then... a Anthropod started to throw a boomeroid. But was shot before he could complete the throw, and dropped it where he stood.

 

BOOOOOOM.

 

... I reloaded cause of the huge financial loss there, though. Aargh! All that nifty tech!

 

 

Multi-worms are only trouble on TB... cause the newborns get FULL AP, and thus plenty of reaction type attacks and moves. On RT, Auto-cannon Explosive rounds toast them easily.