How many High Explosives?

[FullAuto]

A more likely application would be a flying suit with heavy plasma cutting a hole in the underside of the Battleship's main level and then flying up through the hole.

 

Geeeeeeeeeennnioooouuuuuus!

[Jman4117]

Yes....the entertainment room...or down into one of the isolated rooms up top.....

[Zombie]

I am back from a partial testing of all the weapons in X-COM against UFO outer hulls.

 

Alien Grenades are too weak to poke holes in the sides/top of UFO's. So are High Explosive packs. Even the Fusion ball from a Hovertank is useless. Indeed, Blaster Bombs are the only weapon able to "open up" a UFO. Nothing else in the game (including the Heavy Plasma) can do this on "normal" terrain. I also observed that the Blaster Bomb is only able to take down one wall/ceiling tile at a time.

 

Let us assume for the moment that the game applies a random damage range of 0-200 (instead of 100-300 as I mentioned earlier) to UFO hulls. Now assume that the UFO's outer hull requires 160 hit points to obliterate. This would mean there is a 20% chance that a Blaster Bomb will not poke through. (200-160) / 200 * 100 = 20%. Come on, every time I target a UFO hull with a Blaster Bomb it punches through.

 

Some actual statistics seem to be called for in this instance. I'll gather some prelim results with 200 values to see what is happening, and report back.

 

- Zombie

[Bomb Bloke]

Explosions seem to deal less damage as you move away form the center of the blast. The hull takes 100 points of damage to punch through.

 

If a blaster bomb deal 0-200 points, that's a 50% chance. If it deals 100-300 points, then there's no chance of failure.

 

Here's the interesting bit. I gather we can punch through roof tiles? Well, a roof tile has 100 points of armor, same as the hull! But, unlike the hull, it has 0 points of HE blockage, while the hull has 100.

[Zombie]

Supposedly, the damage falls off by 10 points per tile away from ground zero. Move 5 tiles out from a blast dealing 100, and that tile should receive 50 points of damage.

 

The previous statement is true with thrown grenades. It falls short when explaining Blaster Bomb explosions to ceiling tiles of a UFO. When shot down at a ceiling tile, a Blaster Bomb will only create a 1x1 hole in the roof of the UFO. Theoretically, if it imparts 200 points of damage to a certain tile, it should also destroy the adjoining tiles, up to 10 away from ground zero. Something is obviously haywire.

 

So no HE blockage for ceiling tiles, while the hull has 100? Very strange indeed, as the two appear virtually identical when using Blaster Bombs.

[Jasonred]

Hence why I mentioned: "Additionally, we do not know whether a weapons damage is multiplied by 2 like it is for units. It probably is not". Since 200 is the total armor+blockage, and a Blaster does 200, it stands to reason that once those numbers are met a tile is considered destroyed. From what I can tell there is no variance (range) when dealing with objects. Only the max damage of the weapon counts.

Trees and "flammable" objects have a different (and much lower) armor+Blockage number than most objects do. In addition, if something catches fire it will incur some damage until the fire is out. However, most objects are not flammable and will not burn no matter how much fire is applied. Most likely, flammable objects either have an armor rating, or a Blockage number (not both). Me thinks it is the Blockage number since objects tend to burn up in 3 or so rounds.

 

- Zombie

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

BUT, Plasma Weapons DO have a variance on inanimate objects! Try using the Heavy Plasmas to "open up" blocked areas during base defence, you'll understand.

 

What I'm suggesting is that projectile weapons have random damage, Explosive has non random radius decreasing damage, and Fire has it's own funky calculations.

 

Also, how do they calculate the area where damage is appplied for explosives? Like, a Large Rocket seems to do damage from 6-8 tiles away, depending on direction. How is damage applied for say, 2 squares north and one square east? Since it's blast radius is 6 squares east, but 4 north+4 east.

 

Oh, yeah... I forgot how tough the "ceiling" of Ufos are. Yeah, different material, my bad, just tested it out.

[Jasonred]

Supposedly, the damage falls off by 10 points per tile away from ground zero. Move 5 tiles out from a blast dealing 100, and that tile should receive 50 points of damage.

 

The previous statement is true with thrown grenades. It falls short when explaining Blaster Bomb explosions to ceiling tiles of a UFO. When shot down at a ceiling tile, a Blaster Bomb will only create a 1x1 hole in the roof of the UFO. Theoretically, if it imparts 200 points of damage to a certain tile, it should also destroy the adjoining tiles, up to 10 away from ground zero. Something is obviously haywire.

 

So no HE blockage for ceiling tiles, while the hull has 100? Very strange indeed, as the two appear virtually identical when using Blaster Bombs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Eh. Another thing about that formula would be that Blaster Bombs would have a blast radius of 20 tiles. I don't think they're quite THAT bad...

 

Obviously, the damage required to punch a hole in the hull/ ceiling is EXACTLY the strength of the blaster bomb, no more, no less, and the damage isn't random.

 

Since:

1. Same results always occur

2. Similiar tiles which receive marginally less damage are never destroyed.

3. That target tile is always destroyed.

 

QED.

[FullAuto]

The actual amount of damage handed out by the BB could still vary, as long as the minimum was above the 'toughness' of the tile.

[JellyfishGreen]

Note: The above tables show the total number of squares affected (damaged) by the blast. They do not show whether those squares are just damaged in some way, or totally scorched black. I tried this scenario out on the "Desert Sand" category and got the following for scorched diameter:

 

Grenade: 0

[FullAuto]

Then perhaps the explosive damage of the BB does drop off in 10 points per square increments, but they decided to limit the explosive radius in order to avoid making the weapon too powerful.

[JellyfishGreen]

Anomaly being that if hull strength is 160, and BB does 200 damage at impact point which being >160 is sufficient for a breach, and 190 damage one square away (180 at 2 squares etc), then the breach should be wider than one square.

 

So one of these assumptions is wrong.

 

Anyone want to take some power armor and tame Sectopods and volunteer for tests?

[NKF]

I think there may be a fixed range cutoff point myself. Something like an 11 tile radius, or a 23 tile diameter - which is what the blaster bomb gives us. If it was -10 per tile and they let it go on beyond 11 tiles, then the blaster bomb should give us a radius of 19 tiles, or a 39 tile blast diamater - which is kind of big when you consider most maps are 40x40 to 50x50 tiles in width and length.

 

One possible solution would be to run an experiment on a 0 armour unit (all-round) and see how much damage is done at the very fringe of an explosion (i.e. the tile just before the point no more damage is dealt).

 

- NKF

[Jasonred]

The actual amount of damage handed out by the BB could still vary, as long as the minimum was above the 'toughness' of the tile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No it couldn't.

 

The panels next to the blast center take reduced damage compared to the epicenter, but not THAT much reduced. Unless you think that the minimum damage for the center is more than the maximum for 1 tile away?

 

Mmm, I wasn't around during Zombie's Prox mine test. What do those numbers mean? Like:

 

Grenade: 0 (9 normal)

 

What does the 0 mean? I THINK I get the normal bit, I assume that I use only the "normal" figures given, right? And that's diameter. okay.

 

Fullauto and NKF's theory about cutoff sounds about right! I seem to remember BB explosions inflicted on unlucky X-com units being a bit of an "all or nothing" sort of thing. Units on the edge of the blast take approximately 100 less damage, but still quite a lot, and units one square immediately away take none.

Don't do the tests with sectopods (4 in one unit)... Home brewed ultra sectoids are the best!

 

Someone edit the power of the blaster bomb, increase it by 10 points, and see if it blows up a + shaped area. Then increase it by another 10 and check the resulting shape.

 

Thanks! (I don't even HAVE an editor... to reduce temptation to cheat)

[Zombie]

Mmm, I wasn't around during Zombie's Prox mine test. What do those numbers mean? Like:

 

Grenade: 0  (9 normal)

 

What does the 0 mean? I THINK I get the normal bit, I assume that I use only the "normal" figures given, right? And that's diameter. okay.

The quote that JFG provided only tells half the story. Please go to the Prox mines., Do you use them? thread. In it, you will see that Pumpkinhead (a.k.a. Danial) posed a question asking if anyone knew "how much damage a tile needs to change to the "burnt" texture".

 

The main problem is that different tiles take varying amounts of damage to switch to "burnt". Or to say it another way, some tiles are more resistant to explosives than others.

 

Another thing is that tiles can assume 3 different forms in this game: undamaged, partially destroyed, and completely obliterated (burnt). The numbers that JFG quoted are only for sand in a desert terrain. When I said "Grenade: 0 (9 normal)" it means this:

The number not in perenthesis stands for the diameter of tiles completely obliterated to the "burnt" texture. The number inside perenthesis stands for the diameter of tiles which were partially destroyed.

 

Different terrain types soak up HE damage better than others. On the reverse side of the coin, different terrain types show HE damage better than others. It's not that the effectiveness of the blast is reduced due to terrain, it's because that terrain type takes more damage to show that it is damaged. Units standing on the surface of any terrain should still see the same amount of damage from a particular blast (assuming they are situated the same distance from ground-zero). From my past experience, I'll have to say that this is true. But we are still going to have to test to make sure.

 

- Zombie

[FullAuto]

The panels next to the blast center take reduced damage compared to the epicenter, but not THAT much reduced. Unless you think that the minimum damage for the center is more than the maximum for 1 tile away

 

Well, it looks that way, doesn't it? After all, only the epicentre of the blast destroys the tile. Nowhere else.

[Jasonred]

Well, it looks that way, doesn't it?  After all, only the epicentre of the blast destroys the tile.  Nowhere else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

So, there's a couple of possibilities:

 

a) Explosive damage done on terrain is NOT random.

 

b) It is variable, explosive damage drops by 10 per tile, so explsive damage but has a VERY small distribution, presumably 9 points min-max range.

 

c) Damage has some large range of values, and difference in damage done 1 tile away is significant. Therefore, since the minimum for center > maximum for 1 square away, difference per tile is significant.

 

So... yeah... you got any sorta proof or reason to believe that explosive damage done to objects is random?

 

Fine. Someone suggest me an editor which will let me change the damage for a Blaster Bomb, and I'll do the number crunching. Shouldn't be too hard.

[FullAuto]

So... yeah... you got any sorta proof or reason to believe that explosive damage done to objects is random?

 

You mean apart from my Spidey-sense?

[JellyfishGreen]

You mean apart from my Spidey-sense?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your Spidey-sense couldn't detect a bull elephant in a phone booth.

 

No, seriously, this calls for 15 fattened Mutons standing in a row, and a blaster bomb dropped on the first one. Count &/or diagnose remaining Mutons in 5 repeated tests, through mind probe or savefile analysis, and we have our data.

[FullAuto]

Obviously, because it's a SPIDEY-sense. Useful only for detecting...er, spideys?

 

Maybe HE damage isn't random but I would think it's variable.

[Jman4117]

b) It is variable, explosive damage drops by 10 per tile, so explsive damage but has a VERY small distribution, presumably 9 points min-max range.

 

I'm guessing something like that since I've seen the smaller weapons damage slightly irregular patches of tile.

[Blehm 98]

no

you have to use unarmored soldiers because the armor on mutons will play a role in the explosives damage, and the damage on the tiles could also be a standard set but the damage on the soldiers is random, so we'll need someone who is determined, someone who is trustworthy, someone like zombie to test it out for us (correct smiley?)

[Jasonred]

No, seriously, recommend me a good editor, so I can change the damage of a BB and see what patterns that does to the top of an alien ship.

 

You don't have to do the damage to mutons test: Being a sadistic sorta guy, I've already done similiar. It does seem random, since a group of a dozen mutons/ lobsterman psied and clumped in a group, sending a BB overhead and diving into their center ends up with seemingly random patterns of dead/alive aliens.

[NKF]

If you're using Windows 95, 98 or XP, you'll have a decent enough editor handy. It's not good - but it works. It's a lot cruder than a dedicator editor, but it certainly allows you to mess with anything in the files. I refer to MS-Edit! Aha! At least, that is what I use - you'll probably be happier with a hex editor, but whatever works is best.

 

Just type 'edit' in the run menu or through the command console and you're set to go.

 

Open a file and head to your game directory and then look in the geodata\ directory. Look for the obdata.dat file. Before you open it, click on Open Binary and set Line Width to 54 - now open the file. This'll open up all the data before you in a table, making it easy for you to mess with data.

 

There are a few things to keep in mind when editing in this mode.

 

You're working in bytes. Each character is a byte. To look at the value of whatever your cursor is on, look at the Value field on the status bar. Also, if you make any changes, always make sure that you overwrite any characters - you mustn't add any extra bytes to the file or else you may shift all the values across and the game will behave oddly. I recommend working in overwrite mode - just hit Insert to go into overwrite mode - you can tell as the cursor becomes a block.

 

Now, to enter values. Most values can be entered by holding down alt and pressing three numbers on the numeric keypad. Say you want to enter 45, hold down alt and type 045. You'll note that you can also enter values directly, say to enter 100, just enter 'd'. Small caps d's ascii value is 100, see. 32 is the spacebar and @ is 64, just to name a few values. But use the alt key combo if that last bit sounded confusing.

 

Values between 0 through 26 can't really be entered that way for some silly reason or other. To enter them, use ctrl+p+letter (i.e. just press a, b, c,...z to get values 1 - 26). To enter a null value or a zero, use ctrl+p+2 - no I don't know why a 2 is used - it just is.

 

---

 

Now to do what you want to do, head down to line 42 and move your cursor across to column 23. You'll see it displaying a value of 200. To make your edits, just use the alt+3 number on numeric keypad combination.

 

Now save the file and if you were doing this while running the game in the background, you'll need to restart it for the changes to take effect in the game.

 

There - you can fiddle around with other things too if you know what the values mean.

 

Or you can just do a search for the XC2ME2 the X-Com 2 multi editor by Khor Chin Kheong. It's for TFTD, but as TFTD's obdata file is identical in structure to UFO's, it'll load and edit it just fine.

 

- NKF

[Jasonred]

Eh... tested it out. It pretty much confirms that damage drops by 10 points per tile. Furthermore, as I said, the damage done by the BB is exactly enough to bust the hull.

Increasing damage to 210 breaks hull tiles at center and 1 tile distance.

220 blows up to 2 tiles away.

So on and so forth.

Same results every time, whether on roof or on sides.

 

 

If there's an variance in damage, the difference between min and max has to be less than 5 points. If there's any difference at all. Methinks NOT.

 

So, EXPLOSIVE damage to objects is not random. Plasma damage to objects IS random.

 

Took less than 10 minutes after I got myself the editor. Heh. Thanks NKF.

[Zombie]

Rock on, Jasonred! That is some exciting info you gathered! If anyone else is wondering where to find that editor, go to this link and click on (best)XC2ME2, xcom2 multieditor. I used this editor too and got the same results.

 

190 for HE strength is not enough to bust a hull open.

200 is, but only one tile wide.

210 opens up a hole 3x3 tiles wide

220 opens up a hole 5x5 tiles wide.

 

For every 10 points of HE strength above 200, it adds 2 to the width of the hole.

So like Jasonred said, HE damage is strictly a constant (the max listed by the weapon) for objects. For units, HE strength is random. Nice, very nice!