Why I rarely play

[GregDude]

I love this game, but I rarely play it. After just finishing another mission, I realised why... A single mission can take 2-5 hours to complete. When do you ever sit down and think 'I've got 5 hours to kill'? I remember that some of the earlier similar games like X-Com and Jagged Alliance managed to fit a mission into 30min-1.5hrs. I think game/level designers really need to make games that can be played with 1 hand (to eat food with the other) and a 'session' can be played within 1 hour to fit a lunch break or night time. I have another strategy game called Galactic Civilization, which I play even less, a game can take upward of 10hrs! It's been a long time since I was a student and had that much free time, and then, I didn't have money to buy games anyway. At least I know a round of Unreal Tournament is going to last 20 minutes, I might just have a quick game of that.

[Slaughter]

I see your point, but is it really so bad to save in the middle of the mission, and then keep playing the next evening?

[Pete]

I'd have to agree with GregDude here, although it's a fine balance. Whilst a lot of people love how challenging a mission can be, and the fact that it therefore takes so long to play, it can get REALLY annoying when you're still on the same mission three nights later.

 

In X-COM Apocalypse the Motherships and Battleships used to take an hour or so to clear and sometimes stretched to two hours if a stupid Skeletoid was hiding in one of the high up rooms with a cloaking field on him - I mean that was really tedious, but once you found out that that was the problem, it was all over.

 

Silent Storm missions can have you reloading, running all the way bck through maps looking for stuff and still sitting on the same mission three days later whilst other missions can take 10 minutes... you just can't win

[GregDude]

Slaughter, saving anywhere/anytime is great, but breaks the flow of the game in the same way stopping a movie and watching the rest the next day does. I find with another favorite game Master Of Orion, that if I save the game and come back the next day, I have lost a lot of interest in that particular game, and also forget a lot of the micro decisions and event that were occuring. MOO helps by being configurable, a small galaxy game can be played in 45 minutes.

 

Pete, yes, hunting that last hidden alien used to be the worst part of some of the x-com games. Silent Storm (and JA2) improve on this with the real-time when not in combat, which speeds the hunt, and the 'sneaking around' parts.

[DoomMunky]

GredDude, I feel your pain, but I think there's a difference between the X-Com games and S2/S3 that makes all the difference, at least in MY approach to the game, and that is that in S2/S3, the combat is THE defining element of the gameplay, and in X-Com it's not. S2 is all about getting into the action quickly, then mucking about for hours. X-Com was about a lot more than that, what with the base-building, research, recruitment, outfitting, loadouts, radar-tracking, intercepting and so on.

 

I think that X-Com is a better balanced game than S2. I wish the missions were shorter too, or at least broken up into smaller chunks, but they're not. For better or for worse, the tactical combat in S2 IS the game.

 

I agree with you that saving mid-mission messes with the flow of the game, but when checking your Objectives screen is all it takes to remember what you're supposed to be doing, flow be damned. Now, the dramatic flow of a mission, that's a different thing. Is that what you mean? The way that popping into a room and wiping out three dudes is much more meaningful when they've been fending you off for the last fifteen minutes and you've finally manuevered into a good position to root them out? More meaningful than maneuvering into position, having to save and exit, then coming back later and blowing them up?

 

That stinks, but for me, the game is satisfying enough to keep coming back. I hope it gets that way for you, too!

[Slaughter]

See your point GregDude. But I tend to agree with DoomMunky, this game is focused on the tactical part, and thus long missions is okay.

 

That being said, I'd love it if S2/S3 was like X-Com. A much larger strategic part would make the game(s) a killer! I've expressed this to Nival often enough

[DoomMunky]

That is actually the only thing I think could make this game(s) better, aside from numerous little tweaks and fixes. A strategic component like Jagged Alliance or X-Com has been on the fan wish-list since day one...

 

It sounds like this Hammer and Sickle game will have all this, and much more...

[Slaughter]

Yes, let's hope H&S get as good as it sounds!

[GregDude]

GredDude, I feel your pain, but I think there's a difference between the X-Com games and S2/S3 that makes all the difference, at least in MY approach to the game, and that is that in S2/S3, the combat is THE defining element of the gameplay, and in X-Com it's not. S2 is all about getting into the action quickly, then mucking about for hours. X-Com was about a lot more than that, what with the base-building, research, recruitment, outfitting, loadouts, radar-tracking, intercepting and so on.

 

I think that X-Com is a better balanced game than S2. I wish the missions were shorter too, or at least broken up into smaller chunks, but they're not. For better or for worse, the tactical combat in S2 IS the game.

 

...snip...

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, didn't even mean to bring up x-com except to agree that a) hunting down the last hidden alien was a pain, and the real-time mode in these new games solves that. And b) the random generated x-com missions could often be done in a shorter time.

 

I see what you mean though, the SS missions are not random generated and the tactical combat is the focus. Since many SS missions have zones (like above and below ground), there are logical places for pausing or saving the game in a otherwise long session.

[DoomMunky]

And I hear what you're saying, and I think the solution to it is what the devs did in S3, making the real-time switch much more frequent, letting you save your game much more often! That, or not making it such a *gasp* bad thing to save your game mid-mission...who do they think we are, supermen?

[druid]

And I hear what you're saying, and I think the solution to it is what the devs did in S3, making the real-time switch much more frequent, letting you save your game much more often! That, or not making it such a *gasp* bad thing to save your game mid-mission...who do they think we are, supermen?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As usual i agree with Munky,dude u ever consider software design or are u well balanced

and sensible?

[GregDude]

Sounds like a whole lot of unnecessary side taking here (I'm sure Munky just said he wished the missions were shorter, the reason for this post). I am not bashing the game, I was simply saying that as single mission can take multiple hours to play through. I recall as a student 15yrs ago, I didn't think twice about playing a game that took all day. Now, with busy work, wife and kids, anything that takes more than an hour or so doesn't easily fit into life (it ends up as an idle icon, tantalising me from the windows desktop).

 

I program video games for a living, so I know a little about software design. I know that there are loads of ways to solve all of these problems without compromising the game play. We've discussed examples like save games, real time, sub missions, smaller maps etc. And that's far from the limit of tools available for game design.

 

I will probably refrain from further rants. It seems we're still talking because there is otherwise not a lot of action in this forum. I suppose we're still waiting on half the world to get their hands on this gem of a game.

[DoomMunky]

Yup, indeed. Everyone fell off when the site went down/s2hq went offline, and the recent release hasn't really done wonders for our numbers either. Having a US release would certainly help with that....

 

And I think the side-taking is just our way of trying to tell each other that we're not total freaks, posting obsessively about this game we think is great but not that many other folk have discovered. We're patting our own backs! So I'm totally on your side about that.

[Slaughter]

I just like to discuss . I see your predicament GregDude, and I am sure you're not the only one with this problem. Maybe it would have been better with shorter missions. I'd like to see a mod implementing it to find my preference. My main problem so far however was a game killer bug in S2 and the WAY too hard UN bomb mission in S3.

 

You're a game designer? What games and company if you don't mind sharing?

[GregDude]

... You're a game designer? What games and company if you don't mind sharing?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A game programmer. I not going to talk about the companies I've worked for, or the projects I have worked on in a public forum. I am happy to discuss things related to game development in general.

[Slaughter]

That's fine. Just curious

[DoomMunky]

I will probably refrain from further rants.  It seems we're still talking because there is otherwise not a lot of action in this forum.  I suppose we're still waiting on half the world to get their hands on this gem of a game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I say rant away! I'd like to hear your ideas for what could change to preserve game-flow but cut down play time in this game. It won't change the actual game, of course, but I'm interested in your perspective.

 

We could use some discussion, anyway...

 

 

[druid]

I say rant away! I'd like to hear your ideas for what could change to preserve game-flow but cut down play time in this game. It won't change the actual game, of course, but I'm interested in your perspective.

 

We could use some discussion, anyway... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Munky Dude I restarted at difficulty 2.31 hehehe and I am gettin wasted often,its gd

though as it forces you to think up new strategies and use a bigger mix of skills.

 

Geez its hard now,gonna go do some body armor testing (I figure 'hey wat the hell'

as Im getting shot so often)

 

PKs were tough at 1.7 but now..........ekkkkkkkkk!!!!!!!!

[DoomMunky]

Talk to me, dearie, talk to me...

[Briac Uteman]

>Munky Dude I restarted at difficulty 2.31 hehehe and I am gettin wasted often,its gd

though as it forces you to think up new strategies and use a bigger mix of skills.

 

1)Man, think creatively :-)

try to use some tactics - ie while shooting some badass at big distance from around the corner of house, that badass and his friends (if they're still alive 8-D) will most surely run towards you, no one prohibits you from running 2nd char behind the house to surround suckers and toss some grenades around another corner of building. another example - you'll surely have fun in "Penemunde archives" mission shooting bastards with rifle through the wooden wall, or somewhere else shooting through the floor :-)

2) little tip - don't forget that AI soldiers weapons have reliability too and THEIR gun will broke if used extensively - especially PK machine guns

3) not so little tip - random encounters ain't just "random encounters", you can pick up helluva money and guns and xp from them - playing 1st level scout against 4th level enemy is MUCH harder than 15th level agnst 18th.

 

and now for some ads :-) - i've completed the game with everything maxed out, except "weapon breaking" and "save in real-time", that was year ago and i still remember - THAT was damn tough, and "tough 1.7" - no, you can't be serious :-).

 

4) a little suggestion - if you want for missions to be shorter, act with swift and cunning

Seriously - i've made it out with some ideas and their counters

a) smaller maps? - they're small enough, any smaller and you'll say - "what's this? a barracks or some little closet?"

b) less enemies? - "you want me to believe that 5 people were defending that highly secret weapon factory?"

c) weaker enemies - "no, this game pretend to be realistic, i can't kill a man by shooting off his ear"

d) faster pathfinding? - go and get yourself a pentium 99 with 99*10^6 Ghz it's already almost as fast as it could be

 

5) Hammer and Sickle - 'tis great and tough, no.. f*cking tough mod i can say that because i played in demo-version. in 2 words - "fallout-like with much more rpg ..", no, i can't say that in 2 words , just imagine it - shortly after the war, thor hammer's terrorizing eastern europe, and "hands-growing-from-the-wrong-place" "chosen one" with hand axe and TT with ONE magazine against 6 trained (means "95% hitting the spot") terrorists with smg's and rifles. have you imagined it? if not, i'll say - hitting quickload key 3-4 times per minute, but when you kill them - :lol:

now for rpg elements - ... oops, it seems i got carried away

[DoomMunky]

Holy crap, Briac, that's a helluva post! Thanks for the tips and tricks, but I think your 'tough' is different than druid's, or mine. My 'tough' is "Those guys shot at me! Wahh"

 

Is there any English translation of the Hammer and Sickle mod?

[Slaughter]

I'm trying to get an interview with Novik about the game now. Don't think there's a English version of the mod.

 

Oh, and nice post Briac!

[druid]

Talk to me, dearie, talk to me...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Munky dude Ive been taking a break as my ass was sore from the kiking

it was reciving.Also we are busy shipping gear into the UK from Poland and

its hard avoiding HM customs the noisy barks.

 

Hey when I make my first million bucks I remember you and if we get caught

and I end up in the state pen I expect a postcard

 

l8rs dude

[DoomMunky]

And I expect a million bucks

 

Mine was sore, too, but then I lowered the difficulty and got past the first 3 missions and now I'm having fun again!

 

Yay!

[Briac Uteman]

Thank you, DoomMunky, and you, Slaughter , and everybody else (in advance ). But we've driven away from topic and i want to hear your suggestions about how to make the game a little faster - maybe some "blitz" strategies or smthing like that.

 

No, i don't think there is an english version of H&S, at least there weren't 2 months ago