Brothers In Arms

[FullAuto]

Having never gone to war with them, I can't say one way or the other, but it's disturbing. Makes finding a reason to fight with them difficult. I don't imagine leering constantly at each other helps anyone's nerves.

[Zeno]

Okay FullAuto, back on topic, as you said.

 

Having not seen the BIA game, how much homosexual innuendo do you see outside of the small unit you control?

 

(er...no pun intended)

 

I mean, is it everywhere in the game--as if everyone who fought in WWII was gay? Or is it just your special forces unit, including the protagonist, who seem to display such tendancies?

 

I suppose it's *possible*, though unlikely, that there could've been a small group of homosexual men who all signed on to the same unit, specifically so that they could disguise their preferences from the rest of the military. You said it's a Yankee game, and homosexuality in the 1940s US military was...um...punished. Often quite severely.

 

So if the game shows a homosexual unit trying to keep a low profile, yet still do a good job as a professional military unit, it could be an interesting premise for a WWII simulation. If the game tries to show homosexuality as a normal or accepted part of WWII soldiering in the US, then it's taking a fictional view of history, and is probably politically motivated.

 

That's not to say homosexuals weren't in the military. They certainly were. But it was not "acceptable" or open in any way--not on a large scale.

 

It was, however, common for Yankee soldiers to make homosexual innuendos to each other in a joking manner. The difference between the rifle and the gun, for example. Or calling the man in the next bunk "my old lady". Or going to the showers with a "shower buddy". Or taking compromising pictures of a couple passed-out drunk men.

 

------

 

So how much of the game is joking? How much is real homosexuality, but only among a few soldiers? And how much is actual, honest, no-holds-barred homosexuality displayed casually as a normal part of military life--in complete opposition to history?

 

--Zeno

[sir-roosio]

Or (tell me if this is stupid) how much of it is either. . .

 

A) purely accidental, having tried to portray a close knit unit of soldiers in war the developers maybe went a bit too far without realising or:

 

B) Actually not in the game at all, and inly percieved by full auto due to his rough northern upbringin where a man was outed as gay for eating anythin milder than a vindaloo at 5 in the morning and wearing a jumper if the temperature was above -15c?

 

Of course Zeno, you may be right, and a gay conspiracy may be taking place in the games industry, whats next? a strategy game where you have to make sure your soldiers not only fight tacticaly, but also have enough lip balm and moituriser to prevent them getting dry skin on the field of combat? Or maybe in the next GTA game you can push the right analouge stick to walk, press X to sprint, or tap X to mince? Time will tell!

[FullAuto]

B) Actually not in the game at all, and inly percieved by full auto due to his rough northern upbringin where a man was outed as gay for eating anythin milder than a vindaloo at 5 in the morning and wearing a jumper if the temperature was above -15c?

 

At least I learned to type...

To be honest, I think it's totally unintentional. No less disturbing though. Or hilarious.

 

P.S. Was watching a dev diary on the BIA site, and a developer made reference to "the continent of France."

[Aralez]

roflol, I like the frenchies, but their own continent... Too much! :lol: :lol:

[sir-roosio]

the incontinent of France more like

 

Hey I'm British, It's been in the constitution since Agincourt!

[FullAuto]

Don't worry, everyone, I'll slap him.

About time we got the euro as well.

[sir-roosio]

This would be a primw time for me to ask why, and to point out that it's up and down like a yoyo and generally a weak currency, but we can't talk of politics so i won't

 

Back to brothers in arms, anymore news from the front?

[FullAuto]

Nope, finished it and traded it for Timesplitters: Future Perfect.

[DoomMunky]

Oops, this post responded to the stuff at the end of the first page...Oh well, I still like the points:

 

That's a good point, FullAuto. If we saw how awful the damage from a real bullet impact was, there's a pretty good chance we'd all be playing Sims 2. Did you ever play Soldier of Fortune or its sequel? Semi-realistic bullet damage actually made me a little ill while playing. It's freakin' brutal, and gave me a sickening charge in my stomach.

 

I was also thinking that devs don't want to show the carnage of war because then folks wouldn't buy it, and it would be roundly castigated by the media and politicos looking to gain partisan points by attacking easy targets for misinformed, reactionary political bases. *rant over* It would be politically and financially risky to show blood and gore, or even to include the screams and agony of the dying. Why do you never just wound people in these games, eh? Having moaning, screaming, bleeding, cursing, weeping people littering your path is bad for the hero-complex/romantic vision of war that these games foster and encourage.

 

As for sir-roosio's comment that devs use cliches and sentimentality to avoid censure by 'moral' or political groups: I think that might play a part, but I think it's more likely that storytelling in a popular medium has been so debased by three decades of focus-group plot building by TV, Film, and other media producers that a story without easy resort to sentimentality and banal cliches is literally unthinkable. In other words, the people telling us the stories have made themselves too dumb to tell good Oones.

[Aralez]

Interesting and very clever conclusion in that last chapter, Doommunky, that's actually the best and shortest description of the modern film industry i've ever read. Hats off!

 

BB, we need a "Thumbs-Up" icon asap!

[FullAuto]

Storytelling in computer games is rarely good anyway. The fact that it's interactive can excuse a lot of cliches, not to mention cheesy dialogue and illogical decisions. When the story is actually of any worth, it tends to stand out a mile.

Sadly, the only thing people seem interested in is graphics.

[Aralez]

The majority of users are interested in graphics only, yes. But there is that special group of users that actually have a taste, that's why e.g. the Xcom- or System Shock- series still have their loyal fans.

 

"lot of cliches, not to mention cheesy dialogue and illogical decisions".... Absolutely correct and... He, nice said! Reminds me of my "The Fall" review in the games review forum.

[DoomMunky]

That's a great freakin' review, by the way, Aralez. I like the 1/2 point for the happiness you had on your way home from buying it, before the madness began....

 

Thanks too, for your nice words!

 

The games industry has an interesting road ahead for storytelling. I think that the next big step that games make is going to be in the direction of Interactive Story, not just "play-until-you-get-to-the-next-story-node" gameplay that we have in most games.

 

There's a great place I go to read a developer's thoughts on all that: Mark Barret's As Of.... Be sure to check out his archives, as he has a lot of good little examinations of storytelling in games, the media, and the debate about storytelling in games in the industry. Also, if you guys are interested, I can find a bunch of old links to good developer/gamer thought sites that have more than the GameSpy "This game is awesome, but this game SUCKS" discussion that dominates the industry literature.

 

But for a good example of what FullAuto was talking about, remember the excitement over Half-Life's amazing story? The game had a story that unfolded as you played it, and it kept you involved in the story by offering little in-game scripted sequences that told more of the story, be it scientists getting offed by special forces guys or special forces guys getting rampaged by giant bee-launching aliens.

 

It wasn't much of a story, but we lapped it up because we were (and are) so starved for narrative in our entertainment (especially our games) that it was incredibly shiny and new. I love it still, even though it's a very linear, straightforward narrative.

 

Edit: I just found a link to a great site called Antifactory.org. It's a wiki built and maintained by a bunch of cynical narratologists, gamer and academics who think that the main point of games is as a storytelling/narrative delivery system. Check out their review/examination of Doom 3 for a MUCH different take than the rest of the industry!

Edited April 4, 2005 by DoomMunky

[FullAuto]

Properly interactive stories would be excellent, and a few games have at least incorporated 'branching' storylines, and they are enough to ensure a good measure of replayability.

Similar to Half-Life, Halo offered a not-very-original story which captured the imagination big time and provided a lot of enjoyment just talking about the background. It's nice to actually SEE the story progress and things change around you, instead of just being plonked down in the middle of a level and told at the end "Well done, you really made a difference. Next level."

[Aralez]

Doommunky, the Doom 3 review is truly different from all other reviews i have seen. Thanks for the interesting link.

 

They mentioned System Shock 2 in their review...

Hm, in the last month i have read about Sytem Shock 2 very often, i think i have to do my usual and yearly SS2-play-through-festival

[DoomMunky]

Heh! I do that every year with Morrowind. Now there's a game with some story! NOVELS worth of in-game books to read, and so much dialogue you couldn't read it all in a week! Great back-story and world building.

 

I haven't played more than the demo of SS2. It's really that great, isn't it? Have you tried Deus Ex? I hear that's the perfect successor to the SS2 throne, and I loved Deus Ex!

[Aralez]

Yes, both are real game jewels. Too sad that the second part of Deus Ex was so dissapointing. Slaughter felt the same about DE:IW iirc...

[DoomMunky]

My confuser was a bit too slow to play DX2:IW with a good framerate, and now that I have it I'm just not interested. Theif III was fun. Fun to be so sneaky, in a non-Splinter Cell go-exactly-where-we-tell-you-exactly-when -we-say-so kind of way. Deus Ex, the o.g., was great for a while, but the story got really convoluted and I thought it was just a bit too long. My interest was waning by the end. Still a great game, though, with a great sense of freedom (even though it amounted to having 4 different paths through the game...).

[Aralez]

Yep the end was a bit too long. Especially the part where you had to clear that final laboratory/base before you could choose your "fate". Still one of the best games ever.

 

Thief 3, nice! Especially the level in the sanatorium, spooky, shudder! But again the end was a bit too long imo, you finally had the needed four artifacts after a looooong game and had to place them on four different locations, aaargh Where's the bus station

[DoomMunky]

Yeah, I lost all interest by the time that final (?) mission came around where you break into the museum? Plehch... Thinking about replaying sometime, though, because I sure like bopping bad dudes on the head!

 

That damn mission where you go into the old orphanage/sanatarium was THE creepiest thing I've ever seen in a game. Especially when the lights start to flicker, and you just know one of those "things" is near you...OOOHh! Makes me shudder just to type it!

 

But that game was a good example of a story becoming compelling enough to make me frustrated with some of the gameplay: getting from mission to mission became annoying as the story heated up. Going past all those guards in the street got old. I just wanted to get to where I was going so the next cool thing would happen...

 

What's funny, too, is that if the games were only about 15 hours long we'd be complaining that they were too short. Bitchy!

[Aralez]

Yep, you're right, it's hard for the programmers to find the balance regarding length of the game. I don't want to be in their place sometimes...

 

Oh, as we are talking about spooky game levels, in Deus Ex 1 there was a small castle where one had to find clues (in the cellar iirc), that one was creepy, too. But still the Thief 3 level mentioned above is the ultimate frightening level imo.

 

Btw, did you play the game "The Thing" ? It's quite good, too. It really captures the atmosphere of the film in a game, one thing that is seldom acchieved. (Btw, you can the game for a low price ~5 bucks or on some computer magazine CD's these days)

[DoomMunky]

Hmm, no, I missed "The Thing"... I really enjoyed the movie, though. If the game really captures that same sense of paranoia and fear, then man, I'm THERE!!

[FullAuto]

Dm liked the thing so much he got all excited and double posted...well, he would have if we staff members weren't infallible.

The Thing is an excellent film, in my top 10, and the game isn't too shabby either. Not quite as scary as the film, but it does have a nice atmosphere to it. Shame they've started using box art from the game (showing men with submachine guns, no less) for the DVD cover.

[Aralez]

Look here for a very old and still active "The Thing" website: Outpost 31 Lots of downloads, graphics, fanfics etc.

 

Nice icon, it contains a part of the Thing story:

 

https://www.outpost31.com/todd/images/iconfactory.gif