Cheating...

[Zeno]

Aha! Yes, this is excellent! You're absolutely right--I do have some problems with my own definition of cheating, because enforcing MY idea of cheating on the student is also a problem!

 

As I said, I'm a foreigner--which is to say, I'm a guest of the country I teach in. Who's to say my idea of right and wrong are superior or inferior to the students' idea of right and wrong? My job is to teach a few specific courses, and none of them are morality, philosophy, or ethics!

 

This is a question everyone faces when they insert themselves into another culture. As a foreigner, I learn to adapt to the new culture--and that means giving up some of my own culture. Some foreigners give up a lot, and become quite similar, in philosophy, to a nation's citizens. Others resist the urge, and purposefully become rigid examples of their own culture--trying not to adopt any part of the nation they live in. Most of us fall somewhere in between.

 

However, as an educator, and a foreigner, one of the main reasons the university asked me to teach is because I'm a foreigner. The idea is that my teaching style, and my background, are different from other lecturers. Not better, not worse, but different.

 

The students learn from me--not only through the courses I teach, but also through the way I live and act. Their perception of my nationality is affected by me; as a foreigner, I end up as a representative of my nation--simply because they haven't met many people from my nation.

 

I do try to be *very* careful with certain areas, including the area of morality. However, what Ivory said is a very big issue.

 

My goal (and my job) is to get the students to learn the material in my courses. I see cheating as a fundamental obstacle to my goal. Therefore, I attempt to reduce cheating in my classes. At the same time, I must respect the culture that exists around me. My solution, currently, is to give well-defined rules to follow, with some assignments given as "group work" and others as "individual" (thereby strengthening the different "rules"). I discuss the issue of cheating with my students, and back my policies through enforcement. My solution, I admit, is not wholly effective--but I'm always finding new ways to make it better.

 

However...what if I did absolutely nothing, and gave the same amount of credit for a unique paper written by a student as a paper copied from the Internet with no credit to the original author? What if I gave an A to the copied paper, because it is "good", and a C to the unique paper, because it contains some errors?

 

I created this topic in the forums because cheating concerns me, and it is a problem at my university. But it is a problem only because I define it as such.

 

I'm not actually required to do anything, at all, about cheating. That's not actually true--the truth is, I'm not required to do anything about cheating unless I catch the students doing it. And I'm not required to catch the students cheating.

 

Ivory, you're a teacher...what do you think? Should I ignore it entirely? You said you teach young children. If you went to another country where stealing was a little bit bad but not punished, what would you do if a student stole your books?

 

I have another example. One of my friends went to a country where the lowest-scoring students were publicly flogged. She refused to beat her students, and instead found other ways to motivate them to succeed. (She was allowed to refute the system because she was a foreign teacher). If you were sent to teach in that country, would you beat your students? How would you deal with it?

 

Sometimes it is good to bring foreign ideas into an education system. Not because the foreign idea is better, but because it is different. If students are shown many different ways to achieve something, then they learn, they question, they form beliefs and opinions...and that brings about the advancement of society.

 

In an ideal, theoretical world, anyway.

 

--Zeno

[Ivory]

by 'differnt' i didnt mean 'forign'. that does not concern me. your an individual at the end of the day that is wot makes us all special, but also wot causes confusion on issue such as this. I will however answer the questions you posed to me. But i would like it understood that i think everyone is differnt, culture is included inthis but two white, british, middle classes biys, with two parents one male and one female living in the same town in the same area are differnt to each other, and their views and oppinions wil be to.

 

i would like to offer a sinical view on the first point you made and suggest two things. it is possible (tho not definate) that they employed you for your cultural differences, but not because this would creat understanding and new practise, but becasue they could then tick the box that says 'you must have an equal oppertunities policy..' secondly im not entierly sure how much university student do learn from your life style and example....i will assume this to be inccorect simply from experience. (maybe your experience is differnt, this is wot being human is about)

 

peopple can learn and 'cheat' if your definiton of cheating is observed.

 

in a forign country if a child took my books i would point out how that made me, as a person feel. not what teh culture would feel, but me as a person, i think this is important. I would also take each case on individual merit. no one situation is the same.

 

i would not flogg a student. i would show that this system was not working and explain how a better system of praise and encouragement WOULD work. If the country wanted to improve it education system then it would listen, if it didnt it may continue existing practise, in whcih case you are dealing wiht a different situation.

 

i have now wrtitten the long horrible kind of reply i hate, but i think i have answered your questions.

[Strong Bob]

The official definition of "cheating" is merely overstepping the given rules to achieve benefits. Therefore, in the literal term and where legality is concerned, simply disobeying a rule to reach a goal is cheating.

 

But that's the literal meaning. If you want to get into moral meaning... Cheating is not inheritantly evil or good. Merely an action, a type of strategy to essentially "win".

 

In High School, I found myself put into classes that had no bearing on where I wanted to go in life, nor had any relevance to what interested me. (This encompassed engineering and electronics courses.) When I took my engineering class, I had a good friend do about three quarters of my work. This is cheating, since I learned absolutely nothing from that course by exploiting the abilities of someone else. Is it immoral? Well... I don't think I hurt anyone, nor myself, by doing it. I don't do engineering, it's not my forte by any means. (That's why I have DragonHawk, French/Asian engineer extraordinaire, the first man on my MSN list. ) It does not help with my career goals, and I would've forgotten everything I was taught there anyway.

 

Instead, I spent my engineering classes doing homework from other classes, and some personal writing.

 

Excuses? No. I cheated, bold-faced. It's an ugly word, but not avoidable by any means. Was I wrong? Well, I honestly don't think so. I don't think a single engineering class is going to teach me something critical that may save me or my career in the future, but then again, if such a situation arose where it would, I have several friends with plenty of experience in that field to help me out.

 

Would it be cheating to call upon their help to save me in a time of trouble? Probably no different than calling animal control to take care of an animal intruder in your household, or the police to handle an armed robber.

 

In my opinion, you should cheat, so you can become the person you want to be. Not the person a school wants you to become.

 

i would not flogg a student. i would show that this system was not working and explain how a better system of praise and encouragement WOULD work.

 

In some places, Ivory, this tactic does work. And it is why the flogging of students and children is still in effect today.

 

Is it a good tactic? God, hells no! I'm certain you could think of a much better solution to motivating a failing student than kicking the tar out of him.

 

But history has proven, that the fear of pain and suffering can be motivation enough for people to do certain things. Although, fear is by no means a healthy motivation. If anything, if one student were to feel he truly is incapable of meeting demands, he may cheat. (Although, cheating usually warrants greater punishment than incompetance, he may believe the risk is acceptable.) It would be better to simply state how your new teaching method would work, as opposed to saying how the old system "doesn't work". (Ever try telling someone their lifestyle is wrong after their culture/religion brought them up? You seem to have not met SGT. Strike... >_<)

[Ivory]

i would argue that erecent studies show that pain is not as effective in motivating people to learn as rewards and praise.

[Strong Bob]

And you'd be correct. As I have said.

[Ivory]

why do i always think we are arguing oposite point ans you think we are arguing the same point....strange. neways, night

[Strong Bob]

You mentioned before that you habitually skim through my posts. Or was I mistaken?

[FullAuto]

i would argue that erecent studies show that pain is not as effective in motivating people to learn as rewards and praise.

 

Depends on the pain, I reckon.

[Strong Bob]

I suppose... "Good" pain would really motivate me to learn... I can think of one teacher I knew in 9th grade that I wouldn't mind getting a good spanking from. :devil:

 

EDIT: Who killed the devil smilie?

[FullAuto]

Ok, point taken, but a scalpel near the old family jewels would have me going like a sweatshop worker on cocaine.

[Strong Bob]

My point exactly. But wouldn't you work a wee harder if it was a hot teacher promising something a little more pleasurable with your scrotum?

 

Now think of it. What if an impossible demand was made of you, with your balls on the line? Would you not end up cheating in desperation? Whereas simply missing out on some pleasure isn't quite a motivation to be desperate.

[FullAuto]

What if an impossible demand was made of you, with your balls on the line?

 

As far as I'm concerned, when my balls are on the line, nothing is impossible.

[Zeno]

I leave for one day, and now we're talking about scalpals, scrotums, and hot teacher infatuations?

 

Motivate by punishment (pain) or motivate by reward (pleasure)...seriously, it's a matter of means and ends. The goal is the same--motivate. There are many, many philosophical issues and opinions associated with motivation. But really, what motivates individuals is as different as the individuals themselves.

 

I'm happy that I've never been placed in a situation where students are beaten. I've also never...uh...offered "extracurricular" rewards to motivate students...

 

You know, motivation is a part of the issue with cheating. You were joking, but really, if there's no motivation, then why cheat? Some schools have eliminated grades entirely, reasoning that any motivation, except the motivation to learn, is unacceptable.

 

However, would FullAuto ever be motivated to learn maths just for the sake of knowledge? Would Strong Bob ever be motivated to learn engineering?

 

------

 

Strong Bob, I'm glad you responded. I didn't really expect anyone to admit to cheating, but since you opened the can of worms, I'm happy to talk about it! What were the penalties for cheating? Was there any danger of getting caught? If you were in a school that often caught cheaters and punished them severely, would you have forced yourself to do the work? What was the punishment for failure in your school? If cheating were impossible, would you simply decide to fail and accept those consequences?

 

I won't argue with you--people are always asked to learn things that have no relevence or interest to them. (I'm chomping at the bit here--it's a struggle, because I want to explain why engineering, and maths, are important for us all ) Now, you made a conscious decision to refuse learning some "required" classes. But you didn't just refuse to learn--you refused, and then cheated in order to appear to have learned it (at least on paper, a passing mark in the course means you know something about it). So why was it more tempting to cheat instead of failing? Why did you want the mark on paper to say you knew engineering, if you were really wanting to show your individuality and proclaim the courses as unnecessary?

 

Now that you are older, would you choose a different approach? If a child said they didn't want to learn to write (or some other course you think is important to you) would you encourage them to cheat?

 

In my opinion, you should cheat, so you can become the person you want to be. Not the person a school wants you to become.  --Strong Bob

 

That is an interesting statement. You should cheat... Doesn't that say there's a problem with the education system? Or, are you suggesting that the skill of cheating, in and of itself, is a positive learning experience for students? If you learn to cheat at school, then you may be better able to survive the dishonest and cruel world that exists in politics, corporate culture, and society in general.

 

Do you believe that mandatory schooling is unnecessary? Are you against the conformist nature of schools that force students to become something different than what "nature" intended? Does school ever make someone better than they would be if left to their own devices and choices?

 

Sorry to ask so many questions, Strong Bob. These are all open-ended, and anyone in the forums should feel free to respond to any of these questions, too. If I've overstepped and asked about some area(s) you don't want to discuss, feel free to ignore anything I wrote. This can be a sensitive area, and I don't want to antagonize anyone in the forums.

 

------

 

Ivory--

 

i have now wrtitten the long horrible kind of reply i hate, but i think i have answered your questions.

 

This made me laugh! :lol: You must despise my responses!! I'll try to be shorter here--I really will try, honest!

 

It seems you would use your own individualism and conceptions in a foreign country. You would use some methods to teach students why stealing is wrong, and you would choose not to beat students even if that were "standard policy".

 

That's the situation I'm facing, and was trying to illustrate. In my opinion and experience, cheating, as a general rule, is very bad. At the university where I teach, cheating is only a little bit bad. I want to show my students that there are other methods for achieving success, and cheating is not "acceptable behavior" in my courses.

 

Getting opinions from other people, in cultures different from mine or my workplace, may help me find culturally-sensitive yet practical solutions to something I believe, based on my own opinions and experiences, is a problem.

 

------

 

If I can reduce or eliminate the desire to cheat, then I've fufilled my goal. To do that, I must understand the motivation to cheat, and see it from a variety of viewpoints. I don't want to take a hard line and motivate through severe punishment. I don't want to give up and simply allow cheating to go unchecked. I want to understand cheating, and use that understanding to combat it.

 

The students have learned, their whole lives, that cheating works and is acceptable. I want them to learn that there are times when cheating doesn't work, is unacceptable, and that they must sometimes work alone (or in teams) to find a unique solution to a problem. Some students will forget everything I teach them in my classes. But if they learn a few lessons about problem-solving, then I believe they will have gained something valuable. It is my opinion, certainly. I won't dispute that it's my opinion with anyone.

 

Oh, and I'm not asking anyone for suggestions on how to do this. The topic remains the same; "why do people cheat?" I know plenty of solutions--what I want is to understand the problem more clearly.

 

Again, thank you all for your responses! Now I need to go find that hot teacher all the students have been talking about...I hear she gives great motivation...

 

You people are so bad!!

 

--Zeno

[Ivory]

i stopped reading aftet the first paragrahp...i have to admit thats wot usually happens...

 

people cheat becasue they can, or because they dont realise they are, or because they feel that wot is expected of them is unfair or becasue they are just pleased when they dont get caught out!

[Matri]

I'm pretty sure you'll be able to find in newspaper archives the story of a strike by students in India, because their education ministry was cracking down on cheating.

 

And not ONE of them ever mentioned that they were wrongly accused...

[FullAuto]

I think everyone's cheated at something at one time or another. Why? Because cheaters prosper.

[Strong Bob]

Now, you made a conscious decision to refuse learning some "required" classes. But you didn't just refuse to learn--you refused, and then cheated in order to appear to have learned it (at least on paper, a passing mark in the course means you know something about it). So why was it more tempting to cheat instead of failing? Why did you want the mark on paper to say you knew engineering, if you were really wanting to show your individuality and proclaim the courses as unnecessary?

 

My situation was relatively unique. I've been fighting how poorly the school system is run since early Junior High.

 

I did not want any engineering class. I know that mathematics is a requirement in life, as you stated, but certain types of mechanics and engineering are just not needed in life. I fought every day prior to the semester, that I shouldn't need to learn something so farfetched from my life's goals. However, public schooling feels it should teach students a broad range of everything with no focus on any one field.

 

When time came around, the course was required, but I could think of no reason to learn anything from it. I treated the class as a semi-study period. Where I worked on other classes and personal research. (Okay, sometimes I blew it all on doodles and dinking around with my friend. But only sometimes.)

 

I wanted to graduate, so simply getting an "F" was no option. Cheating helped me learn what I needed to learn without the nagging burden of knowing that a class of complete irrelevance to me would be my downfall.

 

Now that you are older, would you choose a different approach? If a child said they didn't want to learn to write (or some other course you think is important to you) would you encourage them to cheat?

 

1: Of course not. I wouldn't have remembered anything from that class anyway. It was of such small importance to me, that even now, years later, I see no reason to know anything about it.

 

2: What's important to me is completely irrelevant to what's important to someone else. So this part is a pretty dumb question, unless you're expecting me to be a tyrannical hypocrite that wants everyone else to be exactly like me.

 

There are things you must learn to collaborate with society. Such as language and mathematics. But tell me this... How much background in biology do you need to be a software engineer? How much do you need to know about poetry to become a vehicle mechanic? How much ability do you need in electrical repair to have a career in screen writing?

 

No one skill is all encompassing. Therefore, you're going to find fields that are completely irrelevant to the one you want. So if someone felt that writing would not be important in their career as a car mechanic, it would make perfect sense to me. You only need to know the very basic of the basics of writing to get around life. (Most people don't even know THAT much. As can be evidenced by a few people on this very board!)

 

You should cheat... Doesn't that say there's a problem with the education system? Or, are you suggesting that the skill of cheating, in and of itself, is a positive learning experience for students? If you learn to cheat at school, then you may be better able to survive the dishonest and cruel world that exists in politics, corporate culture, and society in general.

 

I worded myself incorrectly. I say you should cheat when things get in your way, when they shouldn't. I don't mean things like competition, I mean things that just plain have no right to stand in your way of being your own unique person.

 

Cheating is not a positive learning experience. But it IS a learning experience. Neither good or bad. It's comparable to learning how to fight martial arts. The only positive experience is when the fighting skills gained are used for good. The only negative one is where the skills are used for evil. (Ala, fighting to protect and fighting to get the nerd's lunch money.)

 

If you cheat on a spelling test, I think the only reasoning should be that you just plain have no interest to learn it because your life will not involve it. It has more to do with public schools trying to cram redundant information down our throats, than it does with simply making things easier for ourselves.

 

And yes. I am under the impression that cheating can indeed help survive our cruel world. School is just another obstacle right up there with politics, corporate culture, and society in general.

 

Do you believe that mandatory schooling is unnecessary? Are you against the conformist nature of schools that force students to become something different than what "nature" intended? Does school ever make someone better than they would be if left to their own devices and choices?

 

1: Yes and no. Elementary School and a little of Junior High seem to be the only relevant schooling that are reasonably forced upon children. This is just to teach children how society works and some basics you need to function. Once you hit Junior High, I think that's where you make the choice to what you want in life.

 

Now, I know that's what the whole thing is supposed to be anyway. But it isn't. There are still courses all over Junior High, and even in High School, that enforce redundant teaching and fail to properly educate. (Christ, I was still being taught fucking "synonyms" in the ninth grade! I had a college reading level since fourth grade, so you can guess how incredibly insulted I was with this.) I simply believe the system needs a renewal, or at least an overhaul.

 

2: Nature has absolutely nothing to do with it. If that was my line of thinking, I would be running around outside, naked with a crude wooden club shouting the only two necessities in life: "Boobies and meat" As that is what nature made us to begin with.

 

Nature no longer has bearing on what we do. Otherwise we wouldn't be sitting here on our artificial internet connections discussing this. What matters is what we intend for ourselves, 3rd party deity's and entities of fate completely aside (This includes nature.) This is where public schooling interferes. It's a "one size fits all" system. And of course, as you know, people in society can be so radically different, that no system can possibly work for two people on the opposite spectrums of individuality. (This is why a headstrong rebel can be so incredibly intelligent yet recieve such awful grades in school. Or... Just look at Einstein. )

 

3: "Does it ever?" I wouldn't doubt that it's made a few good people. But shouldn't it always? Isn't that the reason we have school? We go to school to become better people. So why doesn't it work 90% of the time? Why is it that a Junior High drop-out is now making twenty seven dollars an hour while a college graduate is still stuck with a 19/hour job?

 

It's because schools just plain do not work. They work for some people, sure. But that's because these people just happen to fall under the right interest group. Otherwise, we're all left to our own devices. Some people make it out good because they're headstrong and know how to get by all the crap. (Like me with my engineering courses.) Others just give up, some even take it as far as suicide to simply escape all the torture of being forced into a society structure so different to them.

 

If I've overstepped and asked about some area(s) you don't want to discuss, feel free to ignore anything I wrote. This can be a sensitive area, and I don't want to antagonize anyone in the forums.

 

This, by no means, is any sensitive issue to me. Though I was a tad insulted with the question regarding what knowledge is important to me, must be important to someone else or not. I realize you only asked to get a deeper meaning, and I take no offense whatsoever.

 

Now here's something... Why don't you answer your own questions now? Tell us what you think.

[Ivory]

i think we can see wot he thinks...but feel free to elaborate zeno, bob has a point.

 

how do you view cheating.

did you ever cheat?

why do you think people cheat?

how do you aim to tackle the problem?

ect...there are loads of questions. i want to know : do you see 'your way' as the only way, and are you at all willing to adress the issue of cheating ion your uni by actually possibly changing your views? or is it your way or the high way?

[Strong Bob]

how do you view cheating.

did you ever cheat?

why do you think people cheat?

how do you aim to tackle the problem?

ect...there are loads of questions. i want to know : do you see 'your way' as the only way, and are you at all willing to adress the issue of cheating ion your uni by actually possibly changing your views? or is it your way or the high way?

 

1: Cheating is a strategy, a tactic. Not good or bad in it's basic form. Just it's use.

 

2: I have cheated many times. Mostly to forego redundant and useless things. But I would be a fool to say I haven't used the tactic for selfish purposed before.

 

3: This question is too generalize and, in my opinion, highly prejudiced. No two people have the same reason for cheating. So this question cannot be answered with anything else but: "Everyone has their own reason." Though I'd wager the most popular is laziness, I may be wrong.

 

4: Cheating is not a problem. Sometimes the abuse of cheating can cause problems though. Which occur to teach people that cheating must be handled responsibly and properly. (For example, you cheat on University exams and are officially documented as a seasoned professional. But when you start your career, you may not know what the hell you're doing. There's a time and place where you must be careful about what you cheat on.)

 

5: Having such a linear view that "my way or the high way" or simply saying cheating is right or wrong would be classing oneself as biased and prejudiced. If I were a University professor, I'd at least take into account that some students just might not have any use whatsoever for what I have to teach them. It is their responsibility to understand what they will and will not find necessary to learn in their profession, not mine. (Although it would be my obligation to inform them what they'll need, making them understand is impossible and must be done on their own accord.)

[Zeno]

Strong Bob--

 

Sorry about that one "what you think is important" question...I was trying to see if you think any subject is univerally important for everyone (i.e. writing), unlike specialized classes (i.e. engineering) which might only apply to a small minority of adults.

 

I definitely have a clearer understanding of where you're coming from. I suspected that the 'F' grade in engineering was something you didn't want due to university admissions policies--having to take engineering in order to graduate is annoying. I understand why you blew it off after fighting against having to take it. It feels good to prove your point--you knew it wasn't important to learn engineering, you fought against the requirement to learn it, you took the class and refused to learn it, and now, years later, you still don't need whatever the class taught. I definitely understand why you cheated, but I don't agree it's the best way to handle the situation.

 

You said you should cheat when things get in the way of your unique personality, when they shouldn't. However, it creates a problem if an individual actually applies that philosophy all the time. Unfortunately, some people do not have good judgement. You may recognize the difference between "acceptable cheating" and "unacceptable cheating", but most people probably can't see the subtleties. If you are using "unique personality" as part of your definition for acceptable cheating, then every person in the world has a different definition. When you have a definition that no one agrees on, then you no longer have any definition at all.

 

I like your view of cheating as neither good nor evil. I don't like moral absolutes applied to knowledge, either. I definitely think that anything you learn can be used in a "good" way or a "bad" way. Cheating, specifically, does have beneficial uses simply because the world we live in is full of people. Since people are able to lie and cheat, everyone needs to recognize and adapt to it--and at times, maybe even participate in it simply to survive. I'm sure we can all think of examples.

 

------

 

As you requested, I'll answer my own questions. I didn't want to say too much about my own views until I had some others participating in the thread.

 

 

I believe cheating disrupts individual personal growth and the advancement of society in general. I'll take it in sections...

 

It disrupts personal growth because individuals cannot accurately predict everything that they need to know. It's easy to see with children--a child hates to read, no one forces the child to learn, the child cheats through classes, so the child becomes an illiterate adult. Is an illiterate adult bad? No, they can still work, live, and survive--ask any professional football player. But what if someone had forced the child to read? The child then opens a million doors to knowledge and completely new ways to participate in society that they otherwise wouldn't have. The child becomes an adult with more possibilities--more avenues for entertainment, for work, for learning, for communication, etc. It's personal growth. It doesn't mean a literate adult is a better person, or happier, or anything else (if anything, they'll be more stressed dealing with too much information). But it does mean the literate adult has more choices and opportunities in life.

 

It also disrupts advancement of society, because if cheating is acceptable, then only a minority will bother to learn "required" material. Grades become meaningless, and there is no measure of how much anyone actually knows about anything. I see this all the time in computer work--some fool gets an MCSE and convinces a company to hire them, and they don't even know how to use a mouse. Companies hire writers who can't write, teachers who can't teach, nurses who don't know medicines, mechanics who don't know tools, etc. So, it becomes the company's job to test applicants and make sure they know how to do the job. But when you get to that point...what is the value of a degree? It means nothing, because your friends with the same degree all have different levels of knowledge--and grades don't accurately predict anything at all.

 

Society needs measurements of performance in order to put people in jobs they can actually do. Society needs education in order to create people qualified to perform certain jobs. Once education allows cheating, then the entire system breaks down. Yes, you will still have some qualified people--but you won't be able to tell them apart from the unqualified people without expensive and time-consuming testing.

 

 

So, on to some specific questions...

 

How much background in biology do you need to be a software engineer? How much do you need to know about poetry to become a vehicle mechanic? How much ability do you need in electrical repair to have a career in screen writing?

 

It isn't always about "need". It's about "value". Is it valuable for me to know something about poetry, vehicle maintenance, biology, software engineering, electrical repair, and screen writing? Yes, absolutely. It may not apply directly to my job, but it can be valuable in making books I read more enjoyable, everything I write have more realistic characters, and everyone I meet more interesting to talk with. In addition, it sometimes *is* valuable in my job. Software engineering may work with any career field in the world, creating software and systems to help them in their work. Screen writers must know how to create characters in a variety of lifestyles and jobs. Knowing how basic biology works is useful for everyone who has a body. Poetry, a form of art, is not strictly "required" for most professions (the same as any art). But can you honestly say that art should no longer be taught to anyone because it isn't job-related? Art is culture, history, and life--even a vehicle mechanic should be able to appreciate it.

 

 

Why is it more tempting to cheat instead of failing?

 

Some people cheat because they want to express individuality. I believe that is a rationalization--like lying so you don't hurt someone's feelings, or stealing because you know you'll pay it back when you get a job next week. It is more tempting to cheat, or lie, or steal, because it is *easier* than doing the work. Come up with any excuse in the world, but the reality is that it's easier. And, if you've cheated a lot, it may be so difficult *not* to cheat that it becomes impossible. I've seen students who cheated through every math class since introductory algebra. There is no way they can pass an advanced calculus class without cheating. (And no, I don't teach advanced calculus--I'm trying not to talk too specifically about my work here). In my opinion, cheating falls back to laziness (not wanting to work) and greed (wanting something for nothing). And YES, there are instances where you may feel it is justified--I'm not saying it is evil to cheat, I'm just saying what I believe are the core, absolute basis requirements that motivate someone to cheat. I don't think "wanting to do it just for the fun of getting away with it" is a core motivation, because I see that as a rationale instead of an end.

 

 

Now that I'm older, do I feel differently about cheating?

 

Yes. I think about it more, because it's become part of my job as a teacher. When I was a young student, I didn't pay any attention to it. "Oh, she cheated? So what?" was my general opinion. When I was in university, would you believe I never, once, saw anyone cheat? I'm sure it happened, and I heard about people expelled for it, but I never actually saw it--I guess I was out of the loop.

 

 

I asked some questions about the education system...

 

As Strong Bob said, public education is a "one size fits all" system that very rarely fits even half the students. I agree it needs reform in every country I've ever seen it. But no one seems to have a good solution to the needed reforms--a solution that costs the same as the current system, and one that fits close to 100% of students. The reason a lot of wealthy families choose private education is because, at least then, they have some control over the type of education their children receive (and can decide on an institution that "fits" their child better...in the parent's opinion).

 

But rather than talk about education reform (and yes, I know I asked those questions) let's go back to cheating.

 

------

 

And finally, Ivory's questions (which I'll try to answer shorter):

 

how do you view cheating.

 

I think it's too easy for cheating to become a habit. I cheat in BASIC programming, now I must cheat in Pascal to pass. I cheat in Pascal, now I must cheat in C++ to pass. I also think cheating reduces the number of interests and opportunites for a person. I hated Shakespeare for years, and years, and years. Now, I read Shakespeare for pleasure (ummm...rarely; I'm not completely converted). Also, learning multiple fields has opened numerous job opportunities I never would have had otherwise.

 

 

did you ever cheat?

 

Yes. It was my second year of Spanish class. We were required on tests and quizzes to listen to a cassette tape of a Spanish-speaking person say something in Spanish, and then choose multiple-choice answers of both what the person said, and the translation. We would also listen to the person in English, and do the same.

 

The cassette was bad. We couldn't hear the English, much less the Spanish. The teacher refused to change it, and she would leave the room during the tests. During the first half of the class, the class average was 10% on listening/translating. During the second half of the class, it "somehow" magically became 85%. We convinced the teacher to allow the mixed half-Guatemalan kid to sit at the front of the room, near the cassette player...

 

 

why do you think people cheat?

 

Because it's easier than actually doing the work. We always find excuses, but that seems to be the real reason. If Strong Bob could get an A in engineering without studying, paying attention, or doing any work at all in the class, would he bother cheating? The listening/translating part from cassettes in my Spanish class was worth about 5% of the final course grade. If I had a 95% in the class, would I bother cheating? The truth is, I wasn't good at Spanish, I didn't want to study it, and I knew I could pass with a C if I cheated on the listening/translating part of the tests.

 

 

how do you aim to tackle the problem?

 

That's a tough one. I'm still working on it. Right now, I plan to give a quiz or homework assignment, and give a 0% to every student who obviously cheats. That will tell them not to do any "obvious" cheating. In the first class, I will explain my views on cheating, and give real-life examples for how my courses are important.

 

The difficult thing is background. If they cheated in previous classes, then they don't have the background to take and pass my courses. They must either cheat to pass, or learn both the old material and the new material simultaneously. I don't really want to give extra classes in the evening on stuff from last semester (the university pays nothing for overtime).

 

The other difficulty is that they can still cheat. It's impossible to catch 100%. For that, I plan to eliminate as many "easy ways to cheat" as possible. Exam questions will be different from previous years. Homework will not be from a book with a solutions manual that exists. *Someone* in the class will have to do the work themselves, and then everyone who copies them will have to do it...a little bit differently, so it's not obvious that they copied.

 

Research is another problem. I haven't found a way to make it impossible to plagiarize. However, usually I can catch it simply by taking a random sentence or two and entering it into a Google search. :-)

 

After a couple 0% grades, I'm hoping they'll either become very creative (so I can't catch them) or they'll do the work. At the end of the year, I'll throw out the lowest 2 or 3 grades, so no one is unfairly penalized for being in an education system that encourages cheating in other classes.

 

Other methods are still pending. I've heard creative solutions from several teachers, some too draconian, some requiring me to do too much work, and some that create a bad learning environment based on distrust and fear. I'm still thinking about various ideas.

 

 

do you see 'your way' as the only way, and are you at all willing to adress the issue of cheating ion your uni by actually possibly changing your views? or is it your way or the high way?

 

My university says that cheating is bad. But the university itself has no policies for reducing or eliminating cheating. Basically, the policy is, "if the teacher catches a cheating student (and has 100% verifiable proof), then the teacher can give the student a 0% on the assignment...unless the university decides that the student shouldn't be punished."

 

I think this is a bad policy. The university overturns teacher decisions on grades a little too often, in my opinion. I've explained my views to my boss, but the university isn't willing to change the policy yet. Instead, I've been told that I can do more to address cheating in my classes, if I want to, and find creative ways to discourage cheating without lowering student grades.

 

It isn't "my way or the highway". If that were true, then I would've quit working here (or been fired). However, I also won't change my opinion that the university's policy is a bad policy. I've seen it in action, and it encourages cheating. You may argue that "cheating is acceptable in some circumstances", but this is *university*. Do you want to go to a medical doctor who cheated on their PhD defense? Do you want a translator who cheated in Spanish class? Do you want to hire game programmers who cheated through image processing? Do you want your kid to study from a teacher who cheated? I'm not talking about people cheating on something they'll never use, I'm talking about people cheating on the classes in their major course of study.

 

However, there are also some strengths in the education system, and the culture, that are lacking in my home country. When you live and work in a foreign country, you find some things that are worse, and some things that are better (if you're open-minded). Living here, my views on many things have changed. My views on cheating have changed, too. Now that I've seen cheating become common, I realize why it's important to prevent it (or at least not encourage it).

 

I disagree with Strong Bob on this. He feels it is the teacher's responsibility to give the material, and the student's responsibility to actually learn it. However, I believe it is also the teacher's responsibility to remove certain obstacles to learning, find new ways to give the material to make it easier for some students to learn (some students learn better through different approaches), and to provide "connection points" so that students can see how the material relates to other classes, to real life, and to narrow "expert" fields they may want to pursue. The teacher should also be an example to students, taking the subject matter seriously (not joking about it's "worthlessness") and not being hippocritical with rules (if mobiles aren't allowed in class, don't leave yours turned on).

 

If a teacher admits that the course is worthless for some students, and allows those students to cheat without penalty, then you've created a very poor environment for learning. Who wants to take a class where students have different rules to follow? Who wants to take a course from a teacher who thinks it's worthless? If the teacher allows all students to cheat without discrimination, then what happens to the student who actually *does* think it's interesting and wants to learn? That student studies, but cheats just to get the same 'A' grade as everyone else. Or, that student studies, and gets a lower mark for not cheating.

 

No, I can't think of any time when a university professor should let cheating go unchecked.

 

--Zeno

 

(wow, so much for shorter... )

[Ivory]

zeno, i refuse to read that on principle!

[FullAuto]

Well, you did ask the questions...

[Ivory]

i also specified a SHORT response!!!!

[NKF]

Hmmm. Short posts eh?

 

Zeno, I recommend you cheat. Split up your replies and post each idea in a separate post. That'll confuse everyone into reading your replies! (I know how I hate to interrupt myself whenever I'm on a roll and have already written a paragraph for an answer that only needs one sentence)

 

- NKF

[Zeno]

 

I tried using the little "------" mark to split up my post a bit...and double spaced between each question/response section.

 

NKF, I thought of a great idea! I could open a second profile here, and post an entire series of short responses in conversation-format!

 

 

Onez: I think cheating causes problems later in life.

 

Zeno: I agree. It is quite habit-forming. It seems to come from laziness.

 

Onez: Yes, laziness seems to be the basis for all the rationalizations.

 

Zeno: Another basis could be greed, don't you think?

 

Onez: Of course I agree. We think so much alike, don't we?

 

Zeno: Yes, we never argue. It's scary how our minds are like one.

 

 

:lol: Isn't there some reward for the longest post? I'm going to beat NKF one day, I swear it!

 

--Zeno