Cheating...

[Zeno]

There's a thread regarding general views on education here. However, it doesn't go into one major issue with education: cheating. Educational institutions always have various regulations regarding cheating (they define it and set up punishments for it). As with any regulations, these are . . . selectively . . . enforced.

 

I don't want to know if you've cheated before. I'm more interested in how cheating is viewed by your peers. It seems that "culture" has a lot to do with viewpoints on cheating--this is probably because cheating is a moral issue, and morals are set by society.

 

Is it ever okay to cheat? If you cheated on an exam, would your friends (or enemies) do anything about it? How easy is it to get away with cheating? If you get caught, are the punishments a good deterrent?

 

More specifically... Is it okay to do homework in groups, but you shouldn't cheat on exams? If you're allowed to bring a dictionary to an exam, but no notes, is it okay to write notes in the dictionary? Is it okay to plagiarize (sp?) if you're sure the teacher doesn't know the source? Is it okay to take something written in another language, translate it into your own language, and turn it in as your own work? Is it okay to help a friend cheat, as long as you don't cheat yourself?

 

And for those not in school... Is it okay to cheat at work? If your boss tells you finish something in 2 days, and you finish in 2 hours, is it okay to slack off until it's due? Is it okay to cut out of work 15 minutes early on Friday, because you worked an hour of unpaid overtime on Monday?

 

There's thousands of other examples I could write, but I think you get the idea. Cheating is, basically, doing something to get an unfair advantage. But what is unfair? Isn't it always the losers who decide something was unfair, after the fact?

 

I'm interested to know your opinions and thoughts.

 

And if you *must* relate it to gaming somehow (as this is a gaming forum)...is there any correlation between RL cheating and cheating at multiplayer games? (I don't care about single player cheating, since gaining an unfair advantage over a computer is like cheating a swimming pool by using a float.)

 

--Zeno

[FullAuto]

More specifically... Is it okay to do homework in groups, but you shouldn't cheat on exams? If you're allowed to bring a dictionary to an exam, but no notes, is it okay to write notes in the dictionary? Is it okay to plagiarize (sp?) if you're sure the teacher doesn't know the source? Is it okay to take something written in another language, translate it into your own language, and turn it in as your own work? Is it okay to help a friend cheat, as long as you don't cheat yourself?

 

And for those not in school... Is it okay to cheat at work? If your boss tells you finish something in 2 days, and you finish in 2 hours, is it okay to slack off until it's due? Is it okay to cut out of work 15 minutes early on Friday, because you worked an hour of unpaid overtime on Monday?

 

Yes.

[NKF]

Cheating in general is bad, but it's especially annoying when you are the one everyone wants to plagarise from. No one learns from the experience. I've always tried to provide hints or do a bit of unofficial tutoring for them rather than give my work away so that they can at least try to understand what's going on. Rather a fruitless exercise if you ask me, as they kept coming back for more - half the time I had to redo my work for fear that they'd submit most of mine. I'm a bit too soft I guess.

 

But I just want to comment on one small part:

 

Leaving 15 minutes early after doing unpaid overtime: It depends on your contract I guess. If you're contracted to work, say 40 hours a week and you accomplish this by working 8 hours a day, then you are obligated to fulfil these requirements. So if you did an extra ten minutes on one week, and then you quietly leave an extra 10 minutes for your lunch break or whaetever, it's not necessarily wrong - unless your work (such as teaching or if you're in the medical profession just to name a few) requires you to be there for the full duration. It's not fair to do work and not be compensated for it. Unless you've agreed to do it - then it's cheating.

 

- NKF

[Ivory]

some people would call getting a friend to proof read an assignment for you cheating, others would see it as the same jopb a computer does wiv spell ect...so, i really dont know. i think cheating is interesting.

 

We are taught to work together and co-opertate, yet this turns into cheating if we are not told or invited to do it....i can see how it can be VERY confusing for young children to understand...

 

ill think aboutht erest of my point of view...its a difficult one.

[FullAuto]

I can't wait til we get some cry-baby on here whining about how cheating is unfair, robbing them of deserved accolades/money/women.

Coincidentally, I haven't seen Sgt Strike for ages.

[Ivory]

meeeowww! i can see how if your on the other end of cheating ie the cheated, you could feel a tad p***ed off, i know i would, there is no denying it!! but it depends to wot degree i think.

 

if someone in my year had got there lecturer to write their essay for them thatn i would be really p***d off.

if they had got there friend to look through it and correct a couple of punctuatiion and grammer mistakes, point out areas where they were unclear i would be fine with it!

(if they had slept with the tutor in order that they get a good mark...id be repulsed, hes SOOOOO minging)

[FullAuto]

if they had slept with the tutor in order that they get a good mark

 

Sounds like gossip to me. Couldn't possibly be true. *nudge*nudge*

[Ivory]

wouldnt put it past some of them!! ....tho youd be better off with the female lecturers i thik!

[Zeno]

NKF-- When I was in school I had that problem in a few classes--the one people wanted to copy. I solved that by simply refusing, and losing a few "friends" who really weren't worth more than crap anyway. At work I've never had the problem.

 

Well, I take that back. It is sometimes annoying to write something brilliant, and give it to a manager, who then sends it up the chain as a "look what I did" report. But if your work is writing for a manager, then you're paid for it--and the writing becomes "company material" anyway, freely plagiarized by all and sundry. And if the manager's name is the name on the document, they get the credit for all the work their team does.

 

I wonder if the other engineers I worked with felt plagiarized when I took their data, and used it in the report without referencing them specifically? Everything was always "a report by the team" and sent in the name of the project manager. We all knew who was involved at the time, but after a year or three, the names would all be lost or forgotten...

 

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Ivory-- In school, the assignment is (or should be) specific. If it says to do it yourself, then you do it yourself. That includes not having a friend "proofread" it.

 

Most writing assignments I had in school were open. In other words, you don't plagiarize, but having a friend (or many friends) proofread is both acceptible and encouraged.

 

If your assignment is group work, then getting help outside the group is cheating. In all cases of "grey area" I'd ask the teacher. Getting your uncle with a PhD in Physics to correct errors in your electrodynamics research report would probably be cheating. Getting your English major girlfriend to read it and correct the grammar probably wouldn't.

 

For young children, they need to learn the difference. For most people, it's intuitive. Like stealing or murder, you *know* you're doing it no matter how you rationalize it away. (And if you lack conscience...wasn't there some personality disorder test link somewhere around here? Ah yes, here it is!)

 

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On a side note, I started my own consulting business a few years ago, and got the name and phone number stuck in the local phone directory. A woman called me once, and asked if my company could write a research report for her on some topic. I said, "certainly" and we started talking.

 

After a couple inquiries about it, she admitted it was, in fact, for a university science course. :lol: I politely refused the job.

 

--Zeno

[Ivory]

we knew one would turn up if we waited long enough fullauto!

 

i was the one people wanted to copy at school, and i felt the best way to deal with it was to help and encourage them, most of the time they could do it, they just needed the kick start.

 

 

Cheating isnt as clear cut as you make it out to be...wot about ideas raised in a group discussion? are they yours or should you reference the group?

 

Many practitioners in the area of group research state that an effective group will use all its resourses to greatest effect. So getting someone outside the group to write the whole project maybe wrong, but getting them to film a section of a presentation, or do your publicity for an event, or sort your groups lighting, or mount project work in a professional way, or help you word a particulary important part of your speech...are these cheating? and who is to say they are or arent, it is a matter of oppinion. I see them as; a group functioning effectivly by using all avaliable resources to reach its goal!

 

i see many greys, and so do alot of others, obviously, its not always easy to know when your in a grey area and when your not. it depends on the individual

[FullAuto]

"Cheating is Wrong." A moron told me once when I played him in the school chess competition.

I managed to hold him to a draw, and found out later he'd been paying for lessons. Cheating? Not according to most. But not exactly cricket, either.

Cheating depends entirely upon your morality, which isn't universal. I'm testimony to that.

[Ivory]

well put

[Ego Terrorist]

But is being taught (paying for lessons) cheating? A person pays for lessons in chess to improve his game. Another might hire an instructor to help improve his game of golf. And what about learning to drive? I think if a person pays for tutition to improve "X" then that isn't cheating, they're improving their game and sure they may have an advantage over you, however as long as they keep within the rules laid out in the game then they've done nothing wrong.

 

Within computer gaming I'll complete a game without cheating once or twice and then after that I'll happily cheat away just for the fun of it. ^^ However if I'm playing a multiplayer game over a network or online then I'm against cheating as it takes the fun out of it, and gives the opposition an unfair advantage.

 

"I cheated in my metaphysical exam, I looked into the soul of the boy sat next to me."

[FullAuto]

Oh, now I see. Money makes it all right.

[Bomb Bloke]

The guy I play against thinks I practise out of hours. Not true, but I don't want to make him feel bad about his skill - I neither confirm or deny it. :lol:

 

In games and in life, if you cheat at something, you'll find it a lot harder to appreciate the subject as you should.

[Zeno]

Ivory-- I didn't say cheating was clear cut...I just said that, at school, if you have a question you should ask the lecturer who gave the assignment. If the lecturer can't answer the question about whether something "in the grey" is cheating, then you need a new lecturer.

 

Obviously, if you have a "group research" assignment, then having the best individuals in the group perform specific tasks is perfectly fair. I once gave an entire class of 80 students one (rather large) assignment to complete. It was a good learning experience for them, and the fact that some students did absolutely nothing--well, that was part of the experience, and one I wanted them to compensate for.

 

If you're talking about professional cheating, it's a whole different world. In many businesses, you're paid to produce something which then belongs to the business. If you work on a team, then you do whatever part your manager assigns. If you manage a team, you assign the best people to certain tasks.

 

As an example, suppose one business worker must write a report analyzing widgets. The worker decides to ask a friend (a professional widget maker) to do it. The professional widget maker agrees, and writes the report. In the future, the widget maker asks the business worker to create a financial spreadsheet.

 

Is this fair? It's not cheating if the friends agree, if the report isn't company confidential, and if the manager is happy to get the work done by any means necessary. It may be lying, though (if credit is claimed). If I was a manager, I would ask my team to be honest and ethical. However, if they told me a friend wrote the report, I would be fine with it. I would ask them, in the future, to tell me in advance before making such an arrangement again (of course).

 

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FullAuto-- Your friend didn't cheat, he lied. Or perhaps he simply wasn't upfront--dishonesty through silence. Cheating at the game of chess would be to move a piece illegally when you're not looking (and that would only work if you're a really bad player). Or, if you're on a timed game, fiddling with the timer to give himself an advantage. Or perhaps humming or doing something annoying to break your concentration.

 

Since he paid for extra lessons, you should feel really well complimented! Still, he should tell you himself that he's been practicing extra. And if you beat him easily in the past, and now he's bringing you to a tie, then it sounds like the lessons were good. What do you care? What was once an easy win is now a challenge, and someone worth playing against.

 

However, I do think he's a bit of a whinger for not telling you. And if you agreed, in advance, to some sort of "no practice out of hours" rule, then he *did* cheat.

 

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So what's the motivation behind cheating? Is it because you're embarrassed by your own inadequacies? Is it because you want to be the best, and win at all costs? Is it because all's fair in love and war and everything else? Is it because you're unable to do something, and figure you'll learn it legitimately later? Is it because someone else is cheating, so you must cheat to match them? Is it because you're brilliant, and the only reason no one else is doing it is because they didn't think of it first? Is it simply a fear of disappointing someone important to you?

 

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Ego Terrorist-- Online or multiplayer cheaters are really a disgusting breed. However, if cheaters get together and play a game, knowing the best cheater will win, then cheating becomes part of the rules. I remember this discussion regarding Diablo 2, where cheaters seem to enjoy skirmishing against other cheaters. Though mostly, cheaters like to prey on non-cheaters, and that's what makes them a disgusting breed.

 

--Zeno

[Ivory]

i was talking about groups in school/colleges/unis/ i dont see the harm in asking outsiders to help. i would say this is using intitative, not cheating. however the next teacher along the line might view it differntly. i see a big probelm with this when those who are unsure ask if they can do something and are told no. and those who dont ask "get away" with it. how is this fair?? jsut because one group were aware of that it was classed as cheating and one didnt. is it fair on the group who were technically honest? i think not.

 

my point is that if you dont think your cheating, then you wont ask. . . it still might be cheatin in some peoples book.

 

now seriosly, there are so many grey areas that this is impossible to reacdh any kind of conclusion i believe. It is all oppinion based. you can argue with fullautos, or mine, or egos point of view but at the end of the day they are a very small sample of the oppininons out there. who is to say yours or mine or therirs is right..or wrong for that matter. an oppinion is based on nothing except how we feel inside, and that is as different as one fingerprint to the next.

[Zeno]

Ivory, I wasn't really arguing. Just trying to get some feedback on what I think is an interesting phenomenon.

 

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Let's leave off the grey area for now, and get back to what I was really aiming for--why do people knowingly cheat?

 

I should probably give some background on this as well. There is a really big problem with students actively cheating in my university. It is a known problem, and one the administration does very little to solve. Enforcing a no-cheating policy becomes the job of individual teachers, and of course, we each enforce the rules at a different level of strictness.

 

As a foreigner, I don't understand a culture where cheating is "wrong" but also "normal". Sure, I recognize things I would do to start fixing the problem--but I don't understand the basic instinct these students seem to have to go ahead and cheat. There is a real cultural difference on the definition of morality.

 

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Let me be clear, once again, that I'm talking about known, active cheating. Copying a 3 page report on the Internet and turning it in as your own work. A group of 20 students turn in *exactly* the same programming code--complete with comments, variable names, classes, functions, and logic, all identical. Bringing a page of notes to an exam where notes are strictly forbidden. Asking your friend the answer to a quiz loudly enough for the lecturer to hear it. Getting your friend to actually go to an exam room and take the exam for you, hoping the lecturer doesn't notice or check the ID closely. I'm talking about obvious, no-nonsense cheating. Let's forget the grey areas of citing "common knowledge" in a report or getting your English major girlfriend to proofread your biology report.

 

--Zeno

[Ivory]

im gonna op out of this disscussion for now. i feel you want me to say something in particular, and not wot i want to say. tho its been good talking to you so far.

see you soon.

[FullAuto]

why do people knowingly cheat?

 

Because it's easier than doing the work. Why do people knowingly do the wrong thing about a variety of issues? Cheating isn't Evil, but it's certainly Wrong and A Bad Thing To Do. If punishments for cheating aren't strictly enforced, and probably even if they are, lots of people will still cheat, because deterrence isn't very effective. Rehabilitation (or possibly the death sentence) is the way to go.

[Zeno]

The death sentence is a bit strict, don't you think?

 

If it's easier than doing the work, then it sounds like it goes back to ordinary greed and laziness. Just getting something for nothing.

 

I don't know, I have suspicions that there's some deeper motive. Like some people steal not because they're greedy and poor, but because they like the adventure of it. Cheating seems to involve peer pressure (c'mon, everybody else is doin' it!), and a significant amount of guilt (if you don't help me, I'll fail...pleeeaaaasse?)

 

The guilt thing goes even further, as I've heard students say that their parents will feel let down if they bring home bad grades. Also, some students feel guilty for their lack of knowledge, and want to hide their inability from the teacher (if they cheat, then the teacher doesn't know if the student is unable to do it, or simply lazy). Some students would rather appear lazy and immoral than stupid.

 

Another, rather strange excuse I've heard seems to be related to envy. Some students are jealous that another student is smarter (or works harder). So, the less-capable student cheats, reasoning that they must compensate for a weakness in order to become as good as the "smart" student. The few students I've heard using such an excuse are usually busy with far too many extracurricular activities. The excuse is modified to say, "if I wasn't president of 8 campus clubs and working 40 hours per week and taking scuba diving and horseback riding lessons, then I would have time to write that English report and get an A on it. So if I cheat, then I'm simply getting the grade I know I deserve and can achieve...but taking a shortcut to get it, since I'm so busy."

 

I have heard rather astonishing descriptions of teachers who almost encourage cheating, telling students who got A's, "why didn't you help your fellow students? If you're so smart, you should help your friends! You're a just a show-off know-it-all, aren't you? Don't you have a life? I can't believe you have any real friends..." Seriously, there are a few really bad teachers out there. Public humiliation of A-grade students virtually ensures that student won't ever try to get an A again.

 

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I was hoping some others would contribute insight or feedback on why people cheat. It's an area I've become, regrettably, intimitely familiar with over the past couple years. I apologize if my manipulations of this thread were too heavy-handed, but I was really trying to get to the core of a problem I'm trying to solve at work. Ivory, I wasn't trying to get you to say something in particular...but I suppose I was trying to get you to focus a little narrowly.

 

I do appreciate your thoughts Ivory, FullAuto, Ego Terrorist, Bomb Bloke, and NKF. If anyone has more comments, I'd still like to hear them.

 

And seeing as how this thread is unravelling, if you'd prefer to go back and discuss the grey areas of "how to define cheating", then we can do that.

 

I personally feel that cheating is quite well-defined whenever the rules are well-defined. If you break the rules, then you cheat.

 

The "grey area" exists, then, wherever the rules are not defined. Do the rules say everything that is allowed, and anything not in the rules is cheating? Or do the rules say everything that is not allowed, and anything not in the rules is perfectly fine?

 

Another "grey area" is the so-called "spirit-of-the-rules". A lot of people think that rules have some direction, or reason why. If a rule doesn't exist, then it's not defined. Trying to determine if an unwritten rule is part of the spirit of a written rule is a difficult, pseudo-philosophical discussion. I would prefer to skip it, unless anyone is really keen to get into that here.

 

Finally, I would like to point out the difference between lying, cheating, and stealing. It's entirely possible to do all three simultaneously. However, lying is saying something that isn't true (or allowing a false assumption to go uncorrected). Cheating is breaking a rule that you have agreed to follow. Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you (including intellectual property), or depriving the owner of the thing.

 

If you plagiarize a term paper, and tell the lecturer it's your work, then you've stolen the original writing, you've cheated, and you've lied.

 

--Zeno

[Matri]

I have another gray area scenario.

 

A 4000-word term paper completely plagiarized and with full credit to the authors.

 

So I've fulfilled the 4000-word requirement, and I've not technically plagiarized since I gave credit to all the authors. And the rules never said all 4000 words have to be mine.

[FullAuto]

I don't know, I have suspicions that there's some deeper motive. Like some people steal not because they're greedy and poor, but because they like the adventure of it. Cheating seems to involve peer pressure (c'mon, everybody else is doin' it!), and a significant amount of guilt (if you don't help me, I'll fail...pleeeaaaasse?)

 

Giving in to peer pressure is just widespread idiocy and as for guilt, anyone who uses guilt in such a fashion should be beatn about the head. Emotional blackmail is a shabby way to go on, and those who do it ought to learn how to be ashamed.

As you say, it's not just the letter of the rules, there is also the spirit, which some refuse to acknowledge while sticking rigidly to the minutaie, pretending to be whiter than white. The rules are there, like laws, to provide a guideline, nothing more. What you have to realise is that each person rules themselves absolutely, and that ultimately we are responsible only for our own actions, no one else's.

My point is (yes, I do have one, believe it or not), most people are inherently decent, they were raised right and they know right from wrong, but there will always be people who cheat because they can. Others cheat because although the rules may be strictly defined and strictly enforced, their own internal moral compass is broken.

[Zeno]

Matri-- Okay, a 4000 word term paper, copied, but full citation to the original authors. This grey area came because of 2 flaws. First, the assignment should have been to write a report, adding your own original ideas to the research other scholars have produced. The idea behind most research papers is to find various sources, especially conflicting sources, and draw your own conclusions. Since the lecturer created the assignment, yet failed to fully explain the assignment, the lecturer is at fault.

 

The second flaw is that the student should know citing another author's work is, except in extraordinary circumstances, limited to the passages directly relating to the student's report. Again, the lecturer must explain to the students how to give credit. Quotations are usually limited to a sentence. Long quotations are usually limited to a few lines of text. A half a page of quotation is at the borderline "too long" point. A page of quoted text is, except in extraordinary circumstances, too long.

 

If the students have been exposed to term papers before (such as university students), I would apply more fault to the student and give them a failing grade. If the students have never written a term paper before (perhaps most elementary school students), then I would tell the students to redo the report, and give clear instructions on how to do it.

 

What do you think? Is it fair to penalize university students who follow the letter of the instructions, simply because they "should know better"? Is it fair to give credit to the copying student, if everyone else in the class actually wrote their reports? Should there be any penalty for the lecturer who created the poor instructions in the first place?

 

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FullAuto-- I wish I shared your positive view of humanity. However, even if we assume most people are inherently decent, then there's still a problem with, "what is decent?" Parents, friends, society, and culture all influence our view of what is decent.

 

Cheating can, in a way, be viewed as "helping my fellow humans". Cheating is bad, but helping other people is good. If my friend asks for help, which moral guideline is more important? What if "making my parents proud" is good? If I don't get caught cheating, and it improves my grade from a C to an A, and my parents are proud, then I've done something bad but also something good.

 

Your "moral compass" may be working fine for good versus bad, but it is also affected by "how good or bad is it?" If I tell my girlfriend she's not fat, is it a small lie or a big lie? If I borrow a pen from my friend's desk and forget to give it back, is it a small theft or a big theft?

 

Some people honestly believe cheating, on any level, is "not such a bad thing". Believe me; I've met them! Everyone seems to agree it's wrong, but if you're raised to think cheating is only a minor mistake, then who's to blame?

 

And here's the real issue. How do you go about changing a person's moral compass once it's set? How do you redefine the level of how good or bad something is? Even if I eliminate cheating from one course, how do I convince the students not to do it in other, less-strict courses? Is a "morality, ethics, and professionalism" course really any help at all?

 

--Zeno

[Ivory]

my concern here is that you want to enforce YOUR ide of cheating on the student. you are not taking into account the thoughts of the student or other lecturers else where. your idea is the right one and you want to change how the student think. . . this is nto the point of higher education, the point of it IS to think for yourself, question your lectureres and other litreature and your own belifes and form your own oppinions, wot ever they may be., and wotever they may concern.