Psi Stats

[Zombie]

Sorry to drag this up again, but based on those formulas, psi strength in soldiers should not affect their defense at all before you get psi labs.

Is this right, and it is that the aliens just don't bother targetting those with high psi strength? Or is there still a way for psi strength to affect defense without any skill?

Let's take this from the top. Like Quantifier said, when a soldier is recruited, his/her Psionic Strength is already pre-set by the game. Only after one month in the Psi-Lab will you know the soldiers PStr rating. When you have a Psi-Lab built and are ready to start training your troops, the assignment screen shows that all your troops without any training have an initial Psionic Skill of 0. Here again, only after one month of training will that soldier see the possible 16-24 point improvement AND the ability to actually use psionic warfare in combat. (Soldiers must have a PSkl of >0 to actually use their powers).

 

Before you get Psi-labs, PStr actually does play a role in defense. Sort-of. Unfortunately, since PStr is multiplied by a factor of PSkl/5, and PSkl starts at 0, the strength is nullified. Maybe an example would help.

 

Don Nash is a newly recruited soldier. His initial Psionic numbers are:

Psionic Strength: 80, Psionic Skill: 0

Say you send him into combat and the aliens pick him for a psionic attack. If the aliens choose a panic attack, his defense against it would be:

PanicAttackDefense (PAD) = (PStr * Pskl/5) + 10

PAD = (80 * 0/5) + 10

PAD = (80 * 0) + 10

PAD = 10

Not too good, because the skill value of 0 nullified the strength rating completely. The game therefore gives Don 10 basis points for panic defense for the event that he did not complete training yet.

 

What happens when the aliens try to mind-control Don? A similar (but different) equation is used:

MindControlDefense (MCD) = (PStr * PSkl/5) + 30

MCD = (80 * 0/5) + 30

MCD = (80 * 0) + 30

MCD = 30

Like before, the strength rating is used, but the 0 for skill takes it's toll on defense. Don now only has 30 basis points for Mind Control Defense.

 

Okay, say you put Don through 1 month of training. His new stats are:

Psionic Strength: 80, Psionic Skill: 20

Now, the Psionic Strength can play a role because his skill is >0. For Panic Attacks,

PAD = (80 * 20/5) + 10

PAD = (80 * 4) + 10

PAD = 320 + 10

PAD = 330

For Mind Control attacks,

MCD = (80 * 20/5) + 30

MCD = (80 * 4) + 30

MCD = 320 + 30

MCD = 350

 

So you could think of Psionic Strength as your base protection, and Psionic Skill as the modifier to the strength rating. For every 5 points in skill improvement, you gain an extra amount of defensive points equal to the soldiers PStr. The higher the PStr rating is, the more points you get for the same improvement in skill.

 

Finally, the aliens will target soldiers with a low psionic strength for Psi attacks. Actually, the lowest PStr soldier gets attacked psionically first, the second lowest is attacked second, the third lowest is attacked third... (you get the point).

 

Don't worry; psionics are not very easy to understand. It took me a good 4 months of day-to-day studying to grasp the mechanics. And another month or two to decipher the equations the OSG gave. Truth be told, comprehension of psionics is still in its infancy phase so everything is still rather new yet.

 

- Zombie

[Alitorious]

Yes, I understand that and all the formulas. What confused me was that, up until now, I've heard about and seen psi strength as the defense against psi attacks. It's rather new that before psi labs, psi strength only determines which soldiers get attacked and ultimately has no other defense otherwise.

Suppose a team with no psi skill, composed mostly of soldiers with psi strength of 90+, but with one soldier with 80. That one soldier will be successfully panicked and mind controlled despite having a high psi strength, right? (So, essentially, early game there is no defense against psi except using decoys?)

[NKF]

Hmm, what say you I make a savegame with a soldier and a psi-alien, soup the psi-alien up to 100 strength and skill and let the soldier's psi-strength and skill be variable. When I say variable, I mean they're edited by the tester. How's that?

 

I must write this down on a post-it note and.... blast. I still haven't obtained a pad. Oh, well, nothing a bit of tape cannot solve.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

Suppose a team with no psi skill, composed mostly of soldiers with psi strength of 90+, but with one soldier with 80. That one soldier will be successfully panicked and mind controlled despite having a high psi strength, right?  (So, essentially, early game there is no defense against psi except using decoys?)

Exactly correct. Ultimate success also depends on distance too, but for the most part the aliens should pick on the soldier with 80 PStr and 0 PSkl first.

 

I shall do some testing on this soon to verify if this is correct (from past tests, it seemed to be). Temporarily, I'll just use a soldier editor to create my own squad of junk soldiers and send them into battle against a Sectoid Supply Ship. That is, unless NKF comes up with a custom savedgame first.

 

- Zombie

[NKF]

I was fiddling with a possible test game. It's no where near ready, but here are some thoughts I've got.

 

I waited for a month to get an ethereal base (saw some survey teams looking for a new site) - and I think about 5 - 6 floater bases appeared (well, 2 - 3 had appeared in earlier months). Amazing how busy they can get sometimes when you least expect it, eh? But I digress.

 

Soldier (100 Sk, 100 St) + Ethereal Commander (80 Sk, 100 St) = Soldier got mind controlled.

 

Also the commander kept waiting till turn 12 to use mind control on my soldier.

 

Now I used (Soldier 100 Sk, 100St) + (Ethereal Commander 60 Sk, 100St) = Ethereal shot my soldier to death

 

I think it waited till turn 12 to walk all the way over there. Obviously it needed to be able to see the soldier first.

 

Just a few more tests.

 

Soldier (0Sk, 100St), Ethereal Commander (58, 75 (default superhuman stats)) = shot to death

 

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (58/75) = shot to death

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (100/1) = shot to death

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (1/100) = shot to death

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (50/100) = tried to use psi but decided to shoot soldier instead

 

You know what? I'm getting rid of that gun. The ethereal seems far more inclinded to shoot than to use psi. Let's see what it does to that last test. Yep, it tried using psi a few times. Failed most of them but eventually did succeed a panic attack. After many more tries, it's only been able to succeed panicking the soldier. Finally mind controlled the soldier on turn 70 or so.

 

Soldier (0Sk, 100st), Ethereal Commander (50, 100) = Still seemed to have just as much trouble as with 1skill. Let's see what happens on equal terms. 50/100 and 50/100. The ethereal seemed just as reluctant - and eventually killed me with a grenade. *sigh* Yet another wrench in the works.

 

Soldier (100/100), Ethereal Commander (50/100) = Even more reluctant to use psi - the few attempts it did decide to take were failures. 317 turns later, still nothing.

 

Soldier (100/100), Ethereal Commander(80/1) = Absolutely nothing, even after a few hundred turns

 

Soldier (100/100) Ethereal commander (80/50) = Same as previous

 

Soldier (100/100) Ethereal commander (80/100) = Instant mind control (as soon as the soldier was spotted)

 

Basically, with ethereals, we're incredibly lucky they don't naturally get up to 80 psi skill nor do they have 100 psi strength! Argh.

 

- NKF

[Bomb Bloke]

Your tests make me think the Etheral doesn't know where your units are, and thus can't mind control them. That's going by the amount of turns it takes to shoot them.

[Alitorious]

Well, don't aliens need to have seen one of your units before they know where they all are?

 

Edit: I mean psi-wise. Wasn't it that if they see any unit, then they instantly know the location of all others for the purposes of psi attacks?

[FullAuto]

I don't think they see all of your troops if they just spot one of them. Obviously, if the aliens mind control a soldier, and he then sees some troops, the aliens see them as normal.

Aliens also know where your troops are for a number of turns after spotting them, even if they're out of sight.

[Bomb Bloke]

Last I heard, they know the location of ALL your troops if they see one. Certainly easier to program it that way, even if it's not how you'd expect things to go.

[Quantifier]

Maybe not expected, but possible to explain. Soldiers must be using radio or something for communication, so they all should know where are the others. Maybe when aliens spot soldier, the psi-alien somehow scans his mind?

But there again, there is an alien device used for mind-reading, so aliens probably cannot do it themselves...

[Bomb Bloke]

Mutons get the same benefits as psychic aliens. But, they don't use psy attacks, so it's not as noticable...

[Jman4117]

Maybe you could explain it in real world terms as the aliens home in on radio/psi once they see one and know to start looking.

[Zombie]

It is true that if the aliens see just one of your soldiers, then they automatically know the locations/psi abilities of the rest of your troops. It doesn't matter where those troops are located on the battlescape, one look and that info is spread to any psi-aliens present.

 

----------

 

I too, had some time to test certain things out regarding psi-usage by aliens:

 

Test 1

Loaded an Avenger with the following troops:

3 soldiers with 100 PStr and 100 PSkl (for controlling aliens)

4 soldiers with 100 PStr and 0 PSkl

1 soldier with 80 PStr and 0 PSkl

Waited for a Sectoid Supply Ship to land, then sent my transport in. I Mind Controlled all the non-psi Sectoids, took away their weapons and corralled them in a farmhouse. After the aliens returned back to their own status, I sent in a group of soldiers to the bridge to see where the Leader was. My guy with 80 PStr located the alien, and after MCing the Sectoid Leader and taking away his weapons, I brought up the 4 soldiers with 100 PStr and 0 PSkl. All 5 soldiers stood around the alien and waited.

 

Well, what do you know? Just as I always suspected, the guy with the lowest PStr (80 in this case) was attacked via psionics first.

 

Test 2

Same group of soldiers as before, except this time I visited a Sectoid Supply Ship in daylight, and kept reloading until my guys on the ship didn't see an alien for the first round. Since the aliens did not spot one of my troops yet, they couldn't wage any psi-attacks. Now I MC'd the whole bunch of them and corralled them in a farmhouse. My lowest Psi soldier (80 PStr) was covertly hidden from the aliens (and my own soldiers) inside another small house. After finding the Sectoid Leader and taking away his weapons, I let him be with one of my 100 Pstr, 0 Pskl soldiers.

 

First round after returning back to alien status, the Sectoid Leader somehow located my 80 Pstr guy hidden away and launched some Panic Attacks against him. This proves that the aliens know all your troops locations and psionic stats, even with spotting a single soldier!

 

- Zombie

[kai]

Makes sense, after all it is an old game. Locating solders individually is quite advanced, and requires an understanding of AI which may not have been the case back then. Still, it is always good to figure out a few things about the game (like psionics glitch which lets you use the aliens inventory)

[Bomb Bloke]

One thing I always tried was when a soldier came under psi attack, I'd make him run arround like a maniac. The theory was that the aliens would have an easier time finding him if he stayed still. Not sure if it actually worked, but it felt better doing something about it.

[Zombie]

What I used to do is make sure the soldier was completely out of time units when his turn ended. That way, if the aliens mind-controlled him again they couldn't do anything. That helps, but the big thing is to drop his weapons ASAP!

 

I don't mind an alien controlled soldier running around the battlescape, but if you have some soldiers with high reactions and a Heavy Plasmas, kiss that guy goodbye!

 

Soldier: "Hey sarge, isn't that so-and-so"?

Officer: "Nope, not anymore. Just shoot him".

Soldier: "Right away"!

[Quantifier]

What I used to do is make sure the soldier was completely out of time units when his turn ended. That way, if the aliens mind-controlled him again they couldn't do anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't mind control cause unit's TUs to be fully restored? I'm pretty sure it does, I heard you can exploit this when taking control over every quarter of four-spaced alien.

[NKF]

That is correct - this effectively eliminates the usefulness of TFTD's TU bleed button, which is really only to stop you from using reactions completely (and makes yourself 100% vulnerable to reaction fire - but that's another matter entirely). At least, it is entirely correct from X-Com's perspective. Even if mind control from the AI perspective doesn't replenish TUs, the very fact that your psi defenses have been broken down allows the aliens to mind control you on the next turn very easily - after your TUs have been replenished.

 

Dropping your weapon is the most effective strategy so far - or the good old strategy of just carrying something strong enough to hurt the aliens, but not your own soldiers. .

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

unitref[037] is psi skill as the game displays it. It is set to 0 until the unit gains psi.

unitref[056] seems to be the same as psi skill for an initially psi enabled unit, BUT never changes. When a unit gains psi, the skill is set to this. This value is never 0, even for units which can never use psi.

unitref[057] is psi strength.

Speaking of such, I'd really like to see the Psi Strength and Psi Skill numbers the game gives for myself (especially for the aliens). I know, open unitref with MS-Edit. Beyond that, I'm lost. Besides, I want to see actual numbers, not crazy symbols (if possible).

 

Can anyone please help? Thanks!

 

- Zombie

[Jasonred]

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (58/75) = shot to death

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (100/1) = shot to death

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (1/100) = shot to death

Soldier (1/100), Ethereal Commander (50/100) = tried to use psi but decided to shoot soldier instead

 

You know what? I'm getting rid of that gun. The ethereal seems far more inclinded to shoot than to use psi. Let's see what it does to that last test. Yep, it tried using psi a few times. Failed most of them but eventually did succeed a panic attack. After many more tries, it's only been able to succeed panicking the soldier. Finally mind controlled the soldier on turn 70 or so.

 

Soldier (0Sk, 100st), Ethereal Commander (50, 100) = Still seemed to have just as much trouble as with 1skill. Let's see what happens on equal terms. 50/100 and 50/100. The ethereal seemed just as reluctant - and eventually killed me with a grenade. *sigh* Yet another wrench in the works.

 

- NKF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hey. These figures mean that Zombie's formulas that he gave are WRONG.

 

Your figure show that a soldier with 100 psi strength and 0 psi skill DOES seem to have some pretty good defence against mind control, doesn't he?

 

Besides that... I am also guessing that the game uses the same formula for X-com mind-controlling aliens as aliens mind-controlling X-com? (could easily be wrong, but I think it's a reasonable guess).

 

So, I've noticed that it makes quite a big difference when trying to control aliens with weak psi strength compared to high psi strength, regardless of their psi skill. In fact, very few aliens in the game have psi skill higher than 0. So, you would probably notice if all other aliens were all equally easy to Mind control/panic.

 

They're not.

 

Look... here's the easiest way to do the test. Psi control the aliens, don't have the aliens psi-control X-com. It's a lot less finicky than the other way around. uf.

 

Second, first round of tests should ALL involve aliens with Psi Skill of 0, ie normal aliens. When extrapolating graphs and such, it's ALWAYS very nice and helpful to know the intersect values of X and Y.

 

Zombie's formula's most serious flaw is that:

 

(PAD) = (PStr * Pskl/5)

 

for all intents and purposes

 

= (Pstr/5*Pskl) or (Pstr*Pskl)/5

 

or whatever. In other words, that formula would mean that Pstr and Spkl are equally important, and just divide the result by 5.

 

 

Why didn't anybody else comment on these formulas, and say "I think these are wrong". Guys, yes, Zombie and NKF are the most hardworking guys in terms of formulas and experiments, plus Zombies a moderator, but they're *not always right*.

 

 

unitref[056] ... never changes? so... sorta like "initial psi skill" huh. hmmm. Any idea what this figure is used for? hm. Though if it never changes... I doubt that the game uses the "initial" value instead of the "current value". So I guess this figure is effectively non-important.

[NKF]

Jasonred:

 

You know, I really wish more people would come up and say "Hey, you're wrong. Here's why...".

 

My tests there were quite brief, actually. And there were a lot of other factors I hadn't considered. Such as the ethereal's stupid weapons. Had I removed them and stuck to pure psi, I would've obtained more accurate figures. But it does suggest that the AI starts showing preference towards a physical attack the better your psi abilities get, and the fact that the alien know where to find you whether or not they've seen you.

 

Actually, the aggression stat may play a role here. Argh, so many blasted variables to consider.

 

---

 

Zombie:

 

Until someone else can come up with something better, I spent a few hours revising C++ (what's with these text books? They never seem to sufficiently cover the topics you want to brush up on) and dug up an old project of mine, rewrote most of it, and have made an incredibly crude command line unitref psi stat viewer. It's so crude that you can only see one unit at a time, but it works. I'm aiming to making it print a tabulated list to make comparing the stats all that more pleasant a task.

 

Send me your e-mail via PM and I'll send you a copy, along with instructions on how to use the stupid thing.

 

edit: Aha, while deliberating what to do next, I've improved it to do lists. It's now 101% betteresteresterest than the previous version! What specific stats do you need though?

 

- NKF

[Jasonred]

Okay, not only do aliens gain a preference for Weapons over Psi based on probability of successful attack, but they also decide whether to launch panic attacks or mind control based on your psi stat. Since, aliens not only gain the ability to access every single stat your soldiers have, but they have working knowledge of every formula in the game implanted in their overmind...

 

Using Psi on the most psi vulnerable soldier in your team, AND deciding whether to use panic or MC based on his defences is... mmm... and yes, all this despite never having even seen him. grr!

 

Anyhow, yeah, I suspect you should use X-com to Psi attack aliens for future tests. Much less painful than the other way around!

 

Cheers!

[JellyfishGreen]

Jasonred: write that up for the wiki!

 

I remember the discussion on "mind-controlled civilians" and "permanent Chryssalid control" and I wanted to bring up the following recent scenario:

 

Squaddie Bert has come under mind-control in a Sectoid base assault and has shot two other soldiers with heavy plasma autofire. (Bad Squaddie! No biscuit for you!) I have snuck up behind Bert, stuck him with a cattle prod, then revived the unconscious body with a med-kit a few turns later. Upon awakening he now seems to be under alien control without a new psionic attack. (Although unarmed, thankfully.) Is this also a logical consequence of the flag settings? Is it likely to be permanent?

 

Anyway, this base had two psionic-capable sectoids, so I am also contemplating the strategy of bringing two psi-weaklings without weapons (maybe without armor) and just hanging a sign around their necks. "If you find me wandering, I may be lost, please return to XCOM, careful I bite" That should take care of the psi attacks. That just leaves blaster launchers and cyberdisks to deal with...

[Jasonred]

Jasonred: write that up for the wiki!

 

I remember the discussion on "mind-controlled civilians" and "permanent Chryssalid control" and I wanted to bring up the following recent scenario:

 

Squaddie Bert has come under mind-control in a Sectoid base assault and has shot two other soldiers with heavy plasma autofire. (Bad Squaddie! No biscuit for you!) I have snuck up behind Bert, stuck him with a cattle prod, then revived the unconscious body with a med-kit a few turns later. Upon awakening he now seems to be under alien control without a new psionic attack. (Although unarmed, thankfully.) Is this also a logical consequence of the flag settings? Is it likely to be permanent?

 

Anyway, this base had two psionic-capable sectoids, so I am also contemplating the strategy of bringing two psi-weaklings without weapons (maybe without armor) and just hanging a sign around their necks. "If you find me wandering, I may be lost, please return to XCOM, careful I bite" That should take care of the psi attacks. That just leaves blaster launchers and cyberdisks to deal with...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

hmmm.... I'm uncertain how the flags work regarding unconsciousness. It just didn't deflag him since he was unconscious? Or more likely, the game created "unconscious soldier, alien afiliation". I know there's some weird stuff concerning how knocking units unconscious doesn't actually knock a unit unconscious so much as it removes the old unit and creates an object defined as an unconscious being...

 

 

Your psi-weakling idea, sadly, will work... just not for very long. Why?

 

Reaction fire. dum dum dum dum.

 

Well... they will actually last if you stick them in really heavy armor, but I don't think it will end well, since your own troops will then just waste all their own AP blasting their ex-comrades, making them easy meat for the Sectoid rounding the corner with his Heavy Plasma...

 

Worse case scenario: your mind controlled troops' dancing around in their faces irritates your Blaster Bomb toting Commander so much he (reaction) shoots them... at point blank.

 

You could try blockading those decoys though. Have 2 tanks or 4 strong psi but also decoy troops. Plus 2-4 weaklings. Then hem the weaklings into a corner and make their guards face the other way. Now they can't move thus drawing no fire plus no wandering around the map. Quite resource intensive, just for some decoys, though!

[Zombie]

unitref[056] ... never changes? so... sorta like "initial psi skill" huh. hmmm. Any idea what this figure is used for? hm. Though if it never changes... I doubt that the game uses the "initial" value instead of the "current value". So I guess this figure is effectively non-important.

Just see this post. Nuff said.

Hey. These figures mean that Zombie's formulas that he gave are WRONG.

Why didn't anybody else comment on these formulas, and say "I think these are wrong". Guys, yes, Zombie and NKF are the most hardworking guys in terms of formulas and experiments, plus Zombies a moderator, but they're *not always right*.

And I did mention that those formulas were not mine, correct? Sure I did. Truth be told, the psi equations came from the Official Strategy Guide, by David Ellis. I just deciphered them.

 

Just the other week I received 2 more Official Strategy Guides (both written by Dave Ellis) in the mail: TFTD and Apoc. While browsing through the TFTD guide, I happened upon the Psi equations page. Low and behold, the equations he gives match mine. Now are the OSG's equations correct? No, not the ones given in the UFO Defense guide, but they are close. Are the TFTD equations correct? I can only assume that after the first guide (UFO) the few errors that did exist were ironed out in the subsequent guide (TFTD). My impression is that the TFTD's equations are correct. (And by default, so am I).

 

NKF's tests did not check the validity of those equations. The only thing it proved was that Psi-empowered aliens tend to use weapons more than Psionic attacks. And like he said, there are a lot of variables which might skew results. Someday soon I shall run some stringent tests to figure this all out. In the mean time, why don't we wait a bit to pass judgment? Psionics is still in its infancy stage yet...

 

edit: Aha, while deliberating what to do next, I've improved it to do lists. It's now 101% betteresteresterest than the previous version! What specific stats do you need though?

Just the Psi stats, as the other (main) ones are listed when you MC an alien. I'd like to be able to know who I'm looking at also (like a Sectoid Soldier, Floater Commander, Chryssalid, etc.) Is that possible? Thanks, NKF!

 

-Zombie