Psi Stats

[Danial]

That seems to happen in every thread though. Just look at the "Two Quick Questions" thread -- It started out with troop deployment and ended up on Alien Brain strength and modifiers!!

[Danial]

I just did a test, lining up some of the sprites next to each other. The Muton, Floater, and Ethereal are definately taller than a Soldier... and are even taller proportionately to those heights I worked out.

 

This certainly leads me to believe that the extra Human height is simply to compensate the Aliens for something, whether kneeling or otherwise.

 

 

Note: The Chryssalid sprite is equally tall as a Soldier, but its legs are very bent, so I'm guessing that's where the variation lies.

[Bomb Bloke]

I'm happy to have as many statistical threads running as possible, at the moment. Don't much mind about where they end up, it's easy enough to drag them back on track if need be.

 

Aliens are pre-kneeled... Sorta. The advantage there isn't great. If the aliens could kneel proper, then we'd find that X-Com gained a larger advantage from crouching then aliens could, which perhaps would drive people to use the crouch button that much more often?

[Zombie]

I hope we aren't going to be using the term "pre-kneeled" to describe an aliens height from now on. Also, saying that the programmers intentionally made the aliens shorter to give them more of an advantage in the Battlescape is rather misleading too. Why can't we just agree that the aliens in the game are shorter than humans because the alien "sightings" in the past suggested this fact? That is much more logical than some sinister plot by the programmers to give the aliens the edge in combat. The aliens are in reality, rather weak to begin with. Superhuman aliens have stats not much better than the best rookie (with obvious exceptions). I doubt that "shortening" the aliens gives them that much of an enhancement anyways!

[Danial]

Why can't we

[Zombie]

I opened your picture up in a photo editing program, then blew it up so it fit the screen of my computer. I then used that white line as the "baseline" for judging the in-game apparent heights of the aliens. Since an X-COM soldier is 22 for height, all the aliens except for the Reaper and Sectopod should be smaller than a soldier. It's not too hard to tell, that even from a distance, the in-game height of some of the aliens just don't match the OSG's listing. Here is a table showing the true height rating, as well as the apparent in-game height:

Alien          True Height     Apparent Height
Sectopod            23              24-25
Reaper              23                23
Soldier             22                22
Civilian            21                21
Chryssalid          21                22
Muton               21                23
Floater             21                23
Ethereal            20                23
Snakeman            18                22
Zombie              18                21

Shorter aliens too tough to judge accurately.

 

Now you cant tell me from those pics that the aliens have a height advantage. Because the X-COM soldier looks smaller than the Muton, Floater and Ethereal it has the height advantage!

 

Me thinks that the apparent size of the aliens in-game were not programmed directly off those relative height numbers. Just because the aliens are bigger in the game, it doesn't mean that is the "true" relative height.

 

By your own admission the ceiling height in X-COM is 24 units tall. Surely the Sectopod with an apparent height of 24-25 can't fit through. This is what leads me to believe that the apparent heights are either deceiving, or programmed without using the relative heights listed in the game files. Otherwise, the true height and the apparent height numbers should match exactly. Looks can be deceiving...

[NKF]

What you see is meant to be iconic. What's actually going on under the hood is hidden from the player.

 

To be more specific, it's probably just a 'dodge' or 'chance' value that changes with height - which is why it is interpreted like a height value.

 

But hey, I'm all for the concept of midget Mutons...

 

- NKF

[Danial]

I think the reason we're getting our lines crossed is because you're looking at this from the perspective that the Aliens' heights are wrong, whereas I'm saying the Humans' heights are wrong. I'm not saying the Aliens have a height advantage, I'm saying the Human's have a height disadvantage because the code is saying they're taller than they really are. Get me? BB and NKF seemed to understand me. Am I that confusing?

 

I'm saying ALL of the Alien "heights" are correct, and the Human's have been "enhanced" to make them "bigger" targets for the Aliens to hit, that's all...

[Zombie]

I think the reason we're getting our lines crossed is because you're looking at this from the perspective that the Aliens' heights are wrong, whereas I'm saying the Humans' heights are wrong. I'm not saying the Aliens have a height advantage, I'm saying the Human's have a height disadvantage because the code is saying they're taller than they really are.

 

I'm looking at this from the perspective that only the coded heights mean something.

What the aliens appear to look like in the game are insignificant. The in-game figure of units are just eye-candy, and in no way reflect how the game functions or operates. The game just displays an inaccurate image, that's all.

[Danial]

If the sprites are insignificant, why make them different sizes at all?

[Zombie]

I can't answer that. Only the programmers know for sure. It's possible that they never had those heights down in front of them when designing the images. It's also possible that the coded heights were changed during the programming process, and the sprites were not (or visa-versa).

 

No hard feelings there, Danial. Ok?

[Danial]

No hard feelings...

 

 

... 'cause I still believe my theory is correct!

[Zombie]

Well, right now I am going to do something which only happens rarely: put this thread back on-topic!

 

The other day I got to thinking about the original psi equations I presented near the beginning of this thread. Since I was never really happy with them, I thought that perhaps a closer look at the mechanics was warranted. As I started to inspect the PAD and MCD formulas, a sudden wave of understanding swept over me. Then I started to mess around with the "new" equations, and found that they could better explain some of the results I accumulated. Most likely, these are the correct formulas.

 

The Psionic Combat Strength (or PCS) equation remains the same for obvious reasons:

 

PCS = (Psi Strength) * (Psi Skill)

 

Here is where things change a bit. Instead of adding the Psi Str and Psi Skill/5, and then multiplying by a factor of 10 or 30 to find the PAD or MCD, I thought that perhaps the Psi Strength should be multiplied by Psi Skill/5, and then the 10 or 30 factor gets tacked on at the end by a simple addition:

 

The Panic Attack Defense (or PAD) is now:

PAD = (Psi Strength * Psi Skill / 5) + 10

 

The Mind Control Defense (or MCD) now becomes:

MCD = (Psi Strength * Psi Skill / 5) + 30

 

And of course, the Base Chance of Success (or BCS) also remains the same:

BCS = (Attacker's PCS) - (Target's Psionic Defense [MCD or PAD])

 

In this manner, the units will still get a minimum of protection against these attacks. For instance, if a soldier has 0 for either Psi Strength or Psi Skill, he/she will still get a 10 for defense against panic, and a 30 for mind control.

 

This also better explains why a soldier with a PCS of 0 could potentially panic an alien with the bare minimum of PAD (10). The BCS would be 0 - 10, or -10. This would mean an automatic loss of being successful. However, I'm not sure how the game would handle a negative BCS rating. It could just consider it a value of 0 and be done with it. More unlikely, would be that the game drops the negative sign altogether and uses a value of 10 for the BCS. The best thing that I can come up with is that a soldier will always have a random roll involved of at least 10%. That would explain why a PCS of 0 still has a chance for success, when the "true" BCS is -10.

 

According to the new formulas, the maximum number any unit can have for any of these values would be the following:

PCS = (100) * (255) = 25,500

PAD = (100*255/5) + 10 = 5100 + 10 = 5110

MCD = (100*255/5) + 30 = 5100 + 30 = 5130

 

I can now confidently say that the new equations in this post are much more reasonable than the old ones.

 

- Zombie

[Bomb Bloke]

The height values are not intended to let you know how tall the aliens are. They are there so the game can work out whether a shot will hit the unit or not. That's the only reason that stat is there. Because this is the stat's function, the programmers tweaked it so the aliens would have an advantage, dispite the fact that this would deviate from logic.

 

It's exactly the same as the 200% damage modifier applied to plasma attacks on X-Com units. A soldier cover in alien alloys (power/flying suit) takes double damage. A sectoid with no armor does not. This is not logical; the modifier is intended to give the aliens an advantage, not reflect logic.

 

However, these deviations from what is logic have been performed carefully. That is to say, you wouldn't notice them by merely playing the game. The only reason we know what we do is the OSG, and in the case of the aliens being shorter then the soliders, we only know that because I dredged it out of the game data files. The aliens have an advantage logic says they shouldn't have, but they have been given it in such a way that it is not obviously unfair.

 

That, I think, is about the best explanation you'll get.

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

Concerning psi, I'm feeling a need to update my logging program so that it can tell whether a unit is under psionic control or not. Once we have some percentages, the formula that produces the chance to hit will be a bit more clear.

 

While I'm at it, any other values I should add, Zombie? In fact, if it was any use to you, I could even get the program to sift out all the redundant units it currently displays.

[Danial]

Doesn't Moral or Bravery come into play with Panic Attacks somehow?

[NKF]

Well, bravery only adjusts the effects of morale loss, which is caused by a successful panic attack.

 

Now, why the aliens normally reduce a unit's morale before mind controlling it is a bit of mystery to me -- unless morale also does a bit of adjusting to the chance of a psi attack.

 

- NKF

[FullAuto]

I think he means from a 'game mechanic' point of view, D. The graphical representation of the aliens is BIGGER than they really are. Like they were all going into battle wearing high heels.

No, scratch that, too disturbing.

[Danial]

Well, bravery only adjusts the effects of morale loss, which is caused by a successful panic attack.

 

Now, why the aliens normally reduce a unit's morale before mind controlling it is a bit of mystery to me -- unless morale also does a bit of adjusting to the chance of a psi attack.

So what does Morale effect then? I always thought that the Aliens Panicked the soldiers with the lowest Morale for some reason

[FullAuto]

Don't they pick on those with the lowest Psi Strength first?

[Zombie]

Yes, psi-Aliens will wage their psionic attacks against your soldiers with the weakest Psi-Strength first.

 

It's exactly the same as the 200% damage modifier applied to plasma attacks on X-Com units. A soldier cover[ed] in alien alloys (power/flying suit) takes double damage. A sectoid with no armor does not. This is not logical; the modifier is intended to give the aliens an advantage, not reflect logic.

Where exactly are you getting this information from Bomb Bloke? I haven't started the tests on Sectoids yet, so how is it you know that they will not take a maximum of double the listed plasma damage? According to the OSG, every unit except the Sectopod and Zombie take an average of normal damage from plasma ammo. In fact, the Sectoid's damage modifier for every type of ammo is 100%.

 

Or wait, do you mean "soldier" and not "sectoid"? In either case, the damage modifier the OSG gives is still 100%...

 

While I'm at it, any other values I should add, Zombie? In fact, if it was any use to you, I could even get the program to sift out all the redundant units it currently displays.

Well, those unused slots really don't bother me that much. When I export one of those files over to Excel, I can manually select which columns I want to show up. However, I can't really directly select all those unused columns (imagine selecting 75 columns one at a time). I end up exporting the whole kit and kaboodle into Excel, then selecting those junk values and deleting them in one easy step. That's not much of a problem. I dunno, If you want to muck around with the program to eliminate those redundants, go for it. But your program works perfectly the way it is.

 

As for the other stats, like I said a while back, the current Time Units and current Stamina (Energy) values could come in handy. In fact, I could have used them a while back. I forget what for, but I did need them. Heah, is there a file which holds the current number of Fatal Wounds? That would be another helpful stat. Other than that, I think you have all those values covered. Thanks for asking!

[Alitorious]

The Panic Attack Defense (or PAD) is now:

PAD = (Psi Strength * Psi Skill / 5) + 10

 

The Mind Control Defense (or MCD) now becomes:

MCD = (Psi Strength * Psi Skill / 5) + 30

 

Sorry to drag this up again, but based on those formulas, psi strength in soldiers should not affect their defense at all before you get psi labs.

Is this right, and it is that the aliens just don't bother targetting those with high psi strength? Or is there still a way for psi strength to affect defense without any skill?

 

 

And back on the 'height' stat: It does look more like a % to hit modifier. Maybe we can say that it takes into account stuff like mutons jumping out of the way (of lasers... yeah.... ) or ethereals using their powers to deflect the shot or something. Humans, with bad reactions and stuff, would be more easily hit or something.

[NKF]

Psi strength does indeed work on defending against psi while skill is 0.

 

In a nutshell, I believe Psi Skill adds a value between 0 - 30 more points to your overall Psi Strength for the purpose of defence. The easiest way to think about it is Psi Strength provides your major protection, while the Psi Skill is your minor protection.

 

I'll let Zombie elaborate and even correct me if my assumption is incorrect.

 

- NKF

 

edit: Pfft, I keep reading Zombie's explanations on psi attack and defense and I keep forgetting about them. Got to put all this information somewhere...

[JellyfishGreen]

I think the question also remains as to whether a soldier's psi-strength and psi-skill are randomly picked (by the game) when they're recruited, and kept in a hidden pocket to be copied to the visible stat after training, or not until much later when they finish psi-training.

[Quantifier]

I think the question also remains as to whether a soldier's psi-strength and psi-skill are randomly picked (by the game) when they're recruited, and kept in a hidden pocket to be copied to the visible stat after training, or not until much later when they finish psi-training.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Psi strength is randomly picked at the moment you recruit a soldier. Psi skill is set to zero. Strength is not shown when skill is at 0 (this applies to all units in the game, when you use a mind probe on alien). The moment soldier finishes training, he gains some skill, and his strength is revealed. It is not copied, it is in the same place at all the time, in fact you can have a peek into savegame data and see strenght value long before you get psi technology in the game.

[Bomb Bloke]

I haven't yet spotted a 'hidden' psi skill value, but I thought I had at one point.

 

Speaking of height, I found a conclusive use for it - it dictates where the little yellow arror gets drawn. (Doesn't apply to tanks or crouching units).