Tank Intelligence

[JellyfishGreen]

 

I was thinking, since we need to bring tank development into the fanfiction right about now, that the fastest way to get an HWP together with todays technology would be to make it a ROV (Remotely Operated Vehicle).

 

This is because our AI is not nearly up to the task today. The fanfics so far have had semi-intelligent AI tanks, capable of recognizing friendlies and obeying verbal orders. You're postulating an AI breakthrough that's ahead of a handheld laser weapons breakthrough.

 

But the US Army has quite a bit of ROV experience, such as the Fire Ant and the notable success of the Predator unmanned aircraft (UAV) in Afghanistan. To make a ROV HWP, you'd need the military version of a R/C set mounted on an ATV, a cannon for same, a few video cameras to give you telepresence, and an operator holed up somewhere safe (in the Skyranger, say, or back at home base). Very do-able. Give me the equipment above and a few months and I'd deliver.

 

This would still capture all the HWP behavior in the game. The operator interprets the orders you give to the HWP, so it can respond like all the other soldiers, he can use his monitors to identify and shoot the enemy, but he's in a comparatively safe place so the bravery remains high.

 

Any thoughts? Do you think the HWPs are AI or RC?

 

Oh yeah, a few miscellaneous rationalizations.

Q1. Why did the Skyranger land in the middle of all these aliens? (Hot LZ)

A1. The Skyranger probably circles the landing site with chain gun blazing before landing. This drives aliens under cover, and when it looks clear, the craft lands, which takes a minute. As in Vietnam, though, heavy cover allows the aliens to pop right back out again and come looking for you.

 

Q2. Why do we lose the Skyranger when the last soldier dies?

A2. To teach you a lesson. A2b. The aliens rush the Skyranger and shoot the pilot in the few minutes between last soldier going off the tac-comm and the pilot realizing he's the only one left. Maybe Skyrangers take a while to bring the turbines up to take-off speed.

[Solfius]

actually i think Q2 is because there is no pilot, it needs one of your men to pilot it, don't know why (save money?)

[The Veteran]

Well that seems to be the way it works in the game but I think more simply it was just never taken into account. How would a soldier be able to train for both a military role and a pilot as weall anhyway? Besides if you only teach one guy and he dies then you evac the mission... Who the heck flies home!!! Nah he just hides on the Skyranger...

 

And I say RC tanks controlled from the command centre at base. Except on Cydonia... I guess they'd be AI by then because of the Cyberdisc research...

[Alan]

or perhaps the pilot of the skyranger controls them, which would avoid the lag issues which would come into it if it was controlled from the base.

[NKF]

I'd just like to toss this in:

 

Your HWPs can carry the mission if the last soldier dies. That is, as long as they are still functioning.

 

I'd like to think of the HWP's as having a very basic AI, but also having a remote human controller. The controller controls the tank most of the time, and still does so after all the soldiers have expired.

 

But how does the skyranger get back though? Well, simple, autopilot. Tank rumbles onto the skyranger at the end of the mission and activates the autopilot via some remote signal or other. Bang, home it goes.

 

How the equipment is sent back to base... well, I've always had the idea that a collection team comes along, cuts up the UFOs into bite size sections and sends everything home before your team does, since, if anyones noticed, all the equipment mysteriously appears in your base of origin's stores before your Skyranger even leaves the mission site. Perhaps one of the collection crew pilots the Skyranger home?

 

- NKF

[Orac]

Seems like it was never clear in the game. I'd just go with whichever you like best.

 

Personally, I like to think of the HWPs as being like tanks that are manned by a crew. One possible counter to that is that, "how come the tank never advances like soldiers then? And why don't you have to assign it's crew?". I've always thought of that easily explained by that tanks, unlike soldiers on foot, have limitations defined by the tank's capabilities itself. While a soldier on foot could become faster, more accurate, and react better as they got more experience, the tanks would be limited by it's design. i.e. it's turret can turn only so fast, it has a set top speed, etc.

 

What about bravery? The way I explain that is that if you saw infantry being splattered all around you while in a tank, would you be more scared? The weapons that are wasting them, you're rather well protected from. Besides, in a tank, it's what you usually don't see that blows you to pieces. i.e. that enemy infantry guy you didn't notice who was aiming his AT weapon at you, or that other tanks. No matter how much hell is going on around you, you're not going to panic and jump out of the tank since you're much safer inside. Only thing on your mind is going to be trying to find what's blasting all your infantry around you and taking it out. In a tank, you know your only chance for survival is good communication between it's crew, staying calm, and being effecient. It's not like running like hell, or going beserk is going to help you possibly survive.

 

Anyway, that's just the way I like to think of HWPs. I think you should go with whatever you like best in the fiction you write. Afterall, there's nothing wrong with artistic license. It's actually usually a nice thing to see in writing - other's interpretation of subject matter.

 

Also, if you think of HWPs the same way I do, then that easily explains how your skyranger makes it back home - one of the guys in the tank pilot it back. Perhaps it could be assumed they're been trained to pilot many air and ground based vehicles. Being that's they're a part of x-com, it wouldn't be too far of stretch for them to have been trained in many many things. Afterall, they're supposed to be the best of the best so why shouldn't it be assumed there's lots of cross training going on?

[Zager]

But that bravery should only last for one mission, then, because tanks are only a little less vulnerable to plasma weapons than soldiers. A lucky shot from a heavy plasma rifle can destroy it.

 

As for the pilots and cross-training, cross-training generally refers to a soldier being able to fill multiple positions in the squad (a sniper trained as a medic, for instance), learning how to pilot a supersonic transport vehicle is something entirely different.

[Orac]

I just never found it hard to believe that a pilot of a top-secret, elite, military orgranization, trained to be a part of a tank crew, couldn't have down enough of the basics to be able to pilot a transport back to base.

 

Maybe not the way the military, as we know it, go about things, but maybe "tankers" for the xcom program would, just for the very reason that they could make it back to base if there were no pilots or soldiers left.

 

I mean how else could it be explained that a transport can dust off as long as one soldier or tank make it aboard? So one could assume everyone in x-com, with the exception of scientists and engineers, have all been given some form of basic training in how to pilot a skyranger for instance. Maybe that's one of the many qualifications for all we know - that they be able to have down the rudimentary skills to be able to pilot a transport. Afterall, from the looks of it, every x-com soldiers has the ability to pilot a transport. Otherwise you shouldn't be losing a transport craft if nobody makes it back to it alive. Like if the skyranger had a dedicated pilot, he'd just be able to take off if the whole squad got wasted. For some reason though, it's required that at least one soldier or tank make it aboard (and be conscious if they're soldier) to not lose the transport. It's rather inconsistent as to why, and never explained very well.

 

Like if we go with the idea that a tank has AI, why is it necessary for the tank to make it back to the transport if there are no soldiers? Afterall, any AI that the tank could have to make it allow the transport to fly off they could just as easily put in the transport itself.

 

If a tank is remote controlled, then why again is it necessary for it to make it back, if there are no soldiers left? Any remote controls put on a tank could again be installed on the transport.

 

If a tank has at least one human inhabitting it, then it could be explained why the transport can make it back.

 

I mean, any technology that would allow that tank not to need a soldier left on the field to operate, could be applied to the transport. While a transport is going to be much more complex than a tank, to get to do what you want, it still wouldn't explain why a tank must make it back, because if the tank allows a transport to make it home, then the tank has some sort of resource available (be it AI, RC, or a person) to it that the transport doesn't without it. Why would they limit using that resource in question merely to the tank?

 

Afterall, a transport is much bigger, and why would they put that vital resource, that allows the transport to dust off, only in a tank that's likely to be blown up? Why would they build such a dependency if they had the technology available to give the tank that needed resource? Unless for some strange reason x-com's brass feels that a transport shouldn't come home if they lose all their soldiers assigned to it and any HWPs.

 

[The Veteran]

The tanks aren't human controlled... It would be a waste of resources to man something like that. Thinking about it sensibly I'd probably say that the pilot of the skyranger also pilots the tank and if the tank sould be destroyed he takes on the role of a soldier.

[Psy Guy]

Those big ol pieces of kick ass called tanks are most likely controlled by a guy (or girl) in a remote location.... Be right back.... (grabs the X-Com Strategy Guide)... Hmm it says tanks are automated. I assume it means there controled without any human support. About the dust off thing. I think that due to the fact that there aren't any people to left to kill (in the case of all people dead) the pilot is next to go (muton kill all humans. muton see transport. muton go to transport. muton see pilot. run pilot run. muton kill pilot. :closedeyes: muton kill all humans.) But with someone/thing on the ship (or still alive outside) (muton see transport. muton go to transport. X-Com commander kills muton. transport dust off.) Q1 answer. Best spot to land on. Q2 answer. Read above

 

-PSY GUY-

[NKF]

I'm starting to get the feeling that the Skyranger pilot must be dense. Incredibly dense. Who knows? Probably dozes off in the cockpit at the start of the mission, overly confident that the soldiers will prod some serious buttock, only to wake up as a crisp.

 

Of course, I think we're starting to delve a little too deep into the realm of "The Designers Did Not Think About It".

 

- NKF

 

Edit: As for the lightning, I suppose it's rather obvious who pilots the ship eh? Four counter rotating seats... um, never mind.

[Orac]

Automated is an very ambiguous term though. Automated could mean either it's AI controlled, remote controlled, or just automated enough to require a smaller crew to man it (like one man, instead of needing a loader, driver, etc).

 

Of course, I think we're starting to delve a little too deep into the realm of "The Designers Did Not Think About It".  

 

Yeah, but it's interesting to theorize over. I'm kind of glad they were real ambiguous about the tanks, because it gives us something to mull over.

[The Veteran]

Let's just say that the tanks are clearly too small for a man so they follow a kind of chain of command. The highest ranking soldier on the mission orders the tank the same way as any other soldier but instead of going directly to the tank it goes to an operator at base as well as the tank/s. The commanding soldier will issue the tanks with coordinates to move to which will be followed immediately. The AI of the tank will know to stop if it sees an enemy unit or similar...

The orders which are sent to the operative at base will be more precise so they will follow the tanks automated movement sequence and step in if any problems arise. The tank will probably leave a window of a few seconds between spotting and firing at an enemy unit. Allowing the operator to undergo the more complex manouvers themself.

Bearing in mind that we will probably never lose a mission to the extent that everyone on the team dies and we lose the skyranger, I don't think it matters what the pilot does. I would personally leave him unarmed in the rear of the skyranger as a kind of point. Or no actually he could stay in the cockpit and it could be him that updates the HUD from the soldiers video monitors! Sorted!

[Mouse Nightshirt]

I think they are AI controlled. As veteran said, it's far too small for a mant. Where do you plan on hiding Mr Tank Driver in that Plasma Hovertank? Also, if NFK looked in the guide, and said they are automated, then they are. I think in the PSX version, in the UFOpaedia, some changes were made to the entries here and there, and I believe I remember reading automated along one of them somewhere.

[NKF]

Huh? I don't know. The first occurence of the word 'tank' in the only official book for X-Com UFO that I've got (not counting Diane Duane's novel) has the following sentence at the bottom of page 52.

 

'... Tank/Rocket Launcher. The Tank is a large weapon, expensive but powerful.'

 

Didn't see any mention about it anywhere in the book about it being automated or whatnot. The Ufopaedia does mention 'automated', but that still could mean practically anything.

 

- NKF

[Ki-tat Chung]

well, i quite remember seeing a pilot in the PSX movies for UFO...

[Psy Guy]

look in the stratagy guide under HWP

[JellyfishGreen]

Since I strive for realism, I'll go with the following:

- Ignore the 'last man/bot/whatever on the skyranger' rule. We have a dedicated Skyranger pilot, usually in a non-combat role, like 'Nam chopper pilots.

- HWP's are too small for people and are automated, R/C'd from base. Sorta like playing a first-person shooter, for the operator.

- The R/C delay to Mars would ruin the Cydonia mission, but I'll ignore that for now, or bring unarmed operators in the Avenger. (Along with oxygen tanks, food, etc.)

 

I'll build the R/C HWP and let you know how it works out. If it's a workable idea then I feel confident about writing it into the fic.

[JellyfishGreen]

Link: "Super M "Wheelbarrow" Tracked Mine Disposal Robot"

 

Look! This is what I mean.

 

Vet, how's our underground base coming along? Has DocFrance flown any planes suitable for use as Interceptors yet?

 

JG

(At least alien activity is still pretty low. Don't scramble just because of flying reindeer.)

[Psy Guy]

For the mars tank thing what about hyperwave? Maybe the speed of hyperwave could allow for quick info transfer even from mars. Just a thought

 

-PSY GUY-

[JellyfishGreen]

I like it. Hyperwave is probably just more of the electronic version of psionics the aliens use to command their Sectopods and Cyberdisks anyway.

[JellyfishGreen]

To prove that building a human-controlled (or remote-controlled) electric minitank is possible with today's technology, long before the AI emerges, I've enlisted my dad's help.

 

I'm pleased to present Mini Electric Dozer.

[Psy Guy]

Cool. Just slap on some armor and a bazooka and you got yourself a HWP

[Jman4117]

AWESOME!

Where can I get one?

[Pumpkinhead]

My question has always been, why the Skyranger stays anyway? In realistic military missions taking place in hostile territory, the soldiers are dropped off, because the transport would prove to be as easy target.

 

Imagine that: Your Skyranger lands, the soldiers move out, then *BOOM*, a Blaster Bomb destroys your ride home!

 

As for the HWPs, I can just picture the controller sitting in some specially designated room with 3 HD flat-panel monitors in front of him displaying a 270° FOV. For him, as was mentioned, it would just be like playing a really detailed FPS, safe from the dangers of the battlefield, accounting for his (the tanks) higher bravery stat. (The only concern he would have is the HWP's half-a-million pricetag )

 

The fact that it has a reaction score of 20, means that the turret must pivot quite slowly.