Tactical Advice Needed.

[NKF]

No, you are incorrect. The answer is 42.

 

If that was a bit too obscure, forget about it.

 

Just a note of fairly adequate caution, this is slowly deviating into a philosophical discussion.

 

- NKF

[Aralez]

Eek! :o This reminds me of a fanfic-forum thread we had once at ufoaftermath.co.uk back then, we were discussing the philospohical and moral constitution of the reticulans....

 

I don't remember how that thread ended, though... But i think it had something to do with BombBloke shooting evrybody (virtually) :lol:

[Zombie]

We had this discussion a little while ago. I don't know if it ever got tested, but I'm fairly certain you can destroy doors inside UFO's with laser rifles, perhaps even grenades. If that's true, once you've done it, you can just lob a grenade inside.

I tested this out a while back. The ONLY weapons that will destroy a UFO's inner door is the Heavy Plasma, Plasma Hovertank or the Blaster Bomb. That's it.

 

Regular grenades don't make a hole, neither do Proxies, Alien Grenades or even the High Explosive with 110 for damage. (Need I even mention the AC-HE, HC-HE or the two sizes of rockets? They won't work either). Heck, even the Fusion Bomb from a Hovertank isn't enough. Those doors/walls are tough. I'm not saying that HE damage will not filter through those walls, as it can as NKF pointed out. Those types of explosions just can't knock a hole in the wall or tear down a door. Blaster Bombs are the exception. With 200 for average damage, that explosion will most likely obliterate the whole wall, door and all.

 

As for the regular weapons, nothing will penetrate it except a Heavy Plasma, or The Plasma Hovertank's ammo, though you may be looking at multiple auto-shots just to destroy a one-door tile. Lasers won't do it, including the a tank's Laser Cannon. Remember the old chemistry addage: "Like dissolves like"? It applies here. Alien alloy walls/doors can only be destroyed using alien weapons that are powerful enough. Not terran.

[Aralez]

Absolutely correct. Every FAQ says so, too. AND when i edited the laser weapon strength a bit (some years ago) and gave it a damage of >= 200 it was able to shoot holes into walls, too. The plasmas have something >200, too, The blaster launcher has 255 iirc.

[Zombie]

So modifying a laser to do 200 for damage allows it to cut through walls? Well, so much for my "Like dissolves like" theory. In practice though, lasers can't do it.

 

From my damage modifier tests, I suspect that alien walls/doors must be 100% susceptible to all damage types except maybe HE (and obviously stun). If walls/doors are indeed affected normally, then the weapon power listed by the UFOPaedia is the average weapon power, not the max. By modifying a laser to dish out 200 for damage, that is just the average. The max would be 400 or so points of damage! With that much danage being inflicted, I could see how you could obliterate practically everything, probably even UFO hulls!

 

I wonder what would happen to alien walls/doors if you modify Incendiary rockets to dish out 200 for damage? The initial impact probably won't destroy it, but subsequent rockets fired during the round would possibly add enough damage to "burn" them down. Hmm... AP shells doing 200 average damage would also be an interesting concept. :lol:

[Jman4117]

I've found that pretty much any weapon type that does damage will punch through at around 200, Laser, AP, HE, Plasma, etc....don't think Incendiery does though. Rifles firing 250HE at 1% cost auto shots are just awesome for cleaning up Battleships.

[OmegaTwo]

I've found that pretty much any weapon type that does damage will punch through at around 200, Laser, AP, HE, Plasma, etc....don't think Incendiery does though. Rifles firing 250HE at 1% cost auto shots are just awesome for cleaning up Battleships.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Battleships only? You could clean the entire battlefield with one of those if you had enough ammo! And better than the Blaster Bomb, because there is no friendly fire!

[Aralez]

Gimme that gun :lol: Btw is it possible with mods to ADD weapons to XCOM instead of replacing them ?

[NKF]

Actually, yes, you can add six new items to the game. In TFTD, these slots are used for ammo clips and the HTH weapons.

 

The biggest problem is that these six items do not show up in the buy/sell/transfer screens. They will appear in the battelscape if they are put onto a Skyranger, but as it is, you cannot buy or move them about.

 

If anyone can solve this problem, these six weapons will allow for modders to add six items without changing any of the existing weapons. At the moment, the only way to add these items is to manually load them onto a ship (with an editor or hex editor). Also, they don't have ufopaedia entries nor do they have proper labels.

 

There's some unused weapon data in these slots that indicates that there was going to be a laser chain-gun of sorts. I edited so that it worked, and immediately fell in love with it. The laser pistol does more damage, but this thing could do something like 6 autoshots in a turn. Simply Mah-velous!

 

---

 

Zombie: Perhaps walls also have a susceptability ratings? I know lasers don't fare as well at wall cutting when set to the same damage as a plasma weapon.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

Zombie: Perhaps walls also have a susceptability ratings? I know lasers don't fare as well at wall cutting when set to the same damage as a plasma weapon.

 

They probably do. I'm thinking everything in the game has a health rating. From grass to dirt, from UFO hulls to trees, each item or object must be coded with a susceptibility to each damage type. Would explain why Tank/Laser Cannons can't cut through alien alloy walls, while the Hovertank/Plasma can, even though they have exactly the same damage ratings (110).

[Mzuz]

"No, you are incorrect. The answer is 42"

 

I see that you have the answer NKF, but what is the ultimate question?

 

(ps. I love the whole hitchhikers series)

[Bomb Bloke]

I don't remember shooting everyone. Not in that thread, anyway.

[Aralez]

I don't remember shooting everyone. Not in that thread, anyway. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, well, as almost all threads included some of your brutalities, i thought that one did, too.

[knight_of_the_ravens]

i do believe that if u fire the lazer rifles enough times on ONE panel of the alien craft wall, u might be able to punch a hole into it...i've had to do this method several times...but i'm not certain that lazers will get through it....i dunno, it all depends on the endurance of the wall and what kind of craft it is....unless of course ur speaking of the outter hull, u'll NEVER punch through it...(not even with BL's)...it may take several lazer blasts.

[Zombie]

Just to be sure that I'm not going crazy, I re-tested whether laser weapons can actually punch a hole through a UFO wall. I brought along a Laser Pistol, a Laser Rifle, and a Heavy Laser and gave one to each of my three "tester soldiers". I also brought along a Plasma Rifle (average damage = 80) with 10 clips for comparison. Now, I visited a Snakeman Supply Ship, killed all the aliens except for the Snakeman Leader on the bridge, and sent in my shooting squad to test those weapons out on the wall surrounding the three power sources on Level 0.

 

For 110 rounds I used each weapon to it's fullest by firing at one spot on the wall. If the weapon had an Auto Shot, I used that primarily. Laser Pistols didn't punch through. Neither did the Laser Rifle or the Heavy Laser. The Plasma Rifle didn't fair any better than the laser weapons.

 

Did I do enough trials? Sure! 110 rounds * 2 Auto Shots (average)/round * 3 shots/Auto Shot = 660 shots. The Heavy Laser can only manage 3 Snap Shots per round, so it dealt 330 shots to one section of the wall. However, that's 28,050 points of damage (on average) to that wall tile! If it didn't go down with that then look at the Plasma Rifle. 80 points of damage/shot * 2 Auto Shots/round * 3 shots/Auto Shot * 110 rounds = 52,800 points of damage (on average).

 

Maybe walls/items not only have a health rating, but also an "armor" rating. That would kinda explain why all those shots never damaged the wall. See, all the damage is subtracted off the armor first, then the remainder is applied to the health. Assuming alien alloy walls have a susceptibility to Laser and Plasma of 100%, and the max damage inflicted by the Heavy Laser is 170 points, that means that walls have an armor rating of at least 170. Since I know that the Tank/Laser Cannon can't punch through either, that ups the armor rating to 220.

 

However, because the Plasma Hovertank can punch through alien alloy walls, and it has the same damage potential as the Tank/Laser Cannon, that means that those walls are more resistant to laser. But how much? I can't say for sure, but it's tough to punch through with even the Plasma Hovertank or the Heavy Plasma. Does 50% susceptible sound like a good guess for laser? (Because if you illegally crank the Laser damage up to 200 it does go through). Whatever the rating, because the Plasma Rifle can't punch through dealing 160 max points of damage, that means those walls must have an armor rating of somewhere between 160 and 220.

 

If someone could set up a scenario where you could manually adjust the damage of the plasma rifle and laser rifle by 10 point increments, I would be willing to do some tests on the side to check this out. Or just tell me how to change them manually (I assume those damage numbers are found in the OBDATA.dat file somewhere, right)?

[NKF]

Zombie, I'll PM my notes on obdata over and you can do a bit of manual tinkering of your own.

 

I think walls don't have hit points. Just a single armour/durability level. When its destroyed, it sets the current wall to another wall type (a much more damaged looking one, basically).

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

Thanks NKF, notes received!

 

So no health rating for walls then, just an armor/durability level?

 

Here's my problem with that theory: Say a wall has a durability rating of 220. Now say you are shooting at the wall with a plasma weapon which deals a maximum of 160 points of damage (like the Plasma Rifle). Assuming the wall has a susceptibility of 100% for Plasma weapons, the max damage should stay at 160. Ok, you start shooting at the wall and the first hit has a damage rating of 80 (the average). If that would get subtracted from the durability rating, the wall should have 140 left. Say the next shot also deals average damage so the durability goes down to 60. Assuming the final shot also does average damage, the wall should crumble.

 

Or, if you want to look at it another way, every shot that connects with the wall reduces it's durability rating by some number until it hits 0, in which case it's destroyed. My results definately do not show this! I shot at that wall for 110 rounds straight and should have dealt an average of 52,800 points of damage to it. With that amount of damage being inflicted, the wall should have fell after no more than 10 shots! Nothing happened after 660 shots!

 

Maybe the weapon has to meet or exceed the durability of the wall segment in order to destroy it. Assuming your weapon does a maximum of 220 points of damage, you should breach the wall 0.45% of the time. Hmmm... maybe I'll use the Heavy Plasma (230 max damage) and count how often I breach a wall segment with it. Then compare that to a Plasma Hovertank doing a max of 220. Theoretically, the Heavy Plasma should destroy that wall more often than the Hovertank. :lol:

[NKF]

Well, it's the same as your armour. Your armour does not decrease if the amount of damage fails to exceed the armour level, but when it does, armour has a chance of getting damaged.

 

So if you cannot exceed the wall's armour level, you'll never be able to damage it.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

I gotcha. Very well explained, NKF! So it's kinda like my second theory, correct?

 

Just to clairfy a bit: Say the wall has an armor rating of 200. Your weapon can only dish out a maximum of 190 points of damage. Because your weapon only has 190 maximum points, it will never breach the wall armor having a rating of 200.

 

However, say your weapon can pack 210 points of damage. Because the weapon power is higher than the wall's rating, damage will be inflicted only when your weapon deals 201-210. If this happens, the 1-10 points are subtracted from the wall's armor rating. After enough successful hits, the wall is destroyed. Makes sense now!

[NKF]

Roughly. For walls, once damage is done, the wall is destroyed immediately. Or if it's a brand new wall, it will swap it with a more damaged version. Then when the damaged version is destroyed, it leave yet another version but one that you can shoot and walk through (i.e. this will be the destroyed wall).

 

I suppose the damage done might be considered when determining which wall to swap the wall with, because I'm sure you can sometimes blast away a brand new wall with one shot, while at other times, you'll get a partially damaged wall.

 

The game definitely does not keep track of all the armour levels of every static object on the map like it does for the units on the map. My guess is that it just keeps a table saying a wall of whatever type can survive so much damage and checks this whenever damage is done to a static object like a wall.

 

- NKF