Nival Flaming

[uly]

Let me start this post off with this statement: I love this game. And what I'm about to say may offend some of the fans, but contrary to what the subject may suggest, these are not attacks at Nival, but simply some of the things that I thought could have made this game an even better one.

 

Thus far, my biggest gripe with S2 is the lack of humor and character development. Being a spiritual successor of sorts to Jagged Alliance, S2 seemed only to have done a half-way job of extending the strengths of JA. True, each character in the game has a different voice, accent, make slightly different comments and an individual biography, but they simply don't come across nearly as charming and loveable as the bunch in JA. And ultimately, my attachment to these soldiers never went beyond the stats I've built up for them.

 

And while there's certainly no shortage of attention to detail thanks in no small part to its destructible environment and physics engine, the world of S2 still seem pretty dull in comparison to the likes of JA. And the near complete absence of humor of any kind, safe for the absurd sci-fi elements, adds to the staleness of the game. I guess it's somewhat difficult to mess with a WWII setting, but since they've gone as far as high-tech ninjas and robotic body suits, I don't see why the, ahem, realistic background would pose any limitation.

 

Along the same vein, there's never any NPCs, with exception of the handful of plot-critical persons, that have any character to speak of. The only difference between bosses and grunts is that you don't have to pick up the dead bodies of the grunts, and the significance of the NPCs you have to rescue never go beyond the clue icon on their head. Most of the names are used as little more than the fodder to progress the plot, and the clues you go through all the trouble to get become rather unrewarding. All and all, there was very little motivation for me to shoot or save anyone other than what the mission objective tells me to do.

 

On the combat side of things, I've found the absence of weapon mods and any sort of wearable equipment to be disappoint. Having only dipped my fingers in with the S2 Editor, it's obvious that the S2 engine is very robust and flexible, making such missing features very strange indeed. I'd have thought weapon mods should be relative easy to handle, since there's already plenty of tripoded, silenced and scoped weapons in the game. The only reason I thought might have prevented this is due to the WWII setting, in which maybe such mods didn't exist. I don't know.

 

Wearable equipments and body protections may be a bit trickier in terms of game balance, but I'm sure the S2 engine is fully capable of handling at least superficial and cosmetic changes. It's gone as far as letting you create your own face and wearing suits in combat, what's there to stop you from adding a hat, changing the back pack, flasks, bags, pockets, etc.? All of which are readily available assets and functions. It's rather cumbersome to have to mod the game myself just so I can get my character to look the way I want it to. As for functional equipments, I guess body protection may not be all that worthwhile, but I'd like to see things like helmets and binoculars actually serving some kind of function.

 

I've also found the world and region maps to be rather pointless and under utilized; it really wouldn't have made much difference if the maps were replaced by menus. There's next to no difference between encounters in one location than the other, except that you could possibly be too far to catch one encounter before it disappears. And apart from having to watch the yellow dot moving, there's absolutely no sense of traveling to speak of. What I thought to be especially damaging was the lack of time progression on the world map. The only indication of time is the appearance of random encounters, and you never know the time of the day before you actually initiate a mission. Not only does this eliminate any sense of urgency, it also limits the tactical possibilities greatly; things like a night ops specialist team simply isn't feasible.

 

Anyway. I realize that S2 isn't meant to be JA3, but being a JA fan, and knowing that JA's character writer also served in S2 development (can't remember where I read this), I couldn't help but hope to see the things I loved about JA live on. As it stands, I'd consider S2 to be one of the best turn based strategy game ever solely based on its masterful combat system, but then that's really all I could say about S2. Judging from the manual and the press releases, Nival clearly aspired to make more than just a pure combat sim, which they certainly wouldn't be blamed for. But as much I love this game, I still have to say that Nival had failed on making a game worthy of classic status. The reason games like JA are such a success isn't just their enjoyable gameplay, but also all the other elements that come together to make the finished product such a memorable experience. I've played and finished JA and all its sequels several times, and today I can hardly remember a particularly dramatic battle that I fought. I could, however, recall fondly many of the characters, playable and NPCs. A wonderful engine could only go that far if the other aspects of the game don't measure up.

 

There's no question about it: I'm addicted to this game. (I'm only alt-tabbing out of the game even now.) But having said all that I've said, I know this is an addiction that will wear off in time, and there may not be much for me to look back at. Nevertheless, seeing how excellent the S2 engine is, all of the problems I have could be improved upon with an expansion. Sadly, I don't see any of these points being addressed in the Sentinels. Still, I'm certain an expansion could conceivably allow S2 to surpass the greatness of games like JA and become a true classic, but this won't happen without significant commitment on Nival's part.

 

Here's to hoping that happens.

 

p.s. What are we gonna abbreviate the sequel of S2 as? S22?

[Pain]

Being a die-hard JA and JA2 fan, I agree with you in all points.

 

Let's hope somebody does a nice strategic mod for S2, then it would be a lot more addictive. Something like conquering sector like it is in JA.

[Lance]

I share your sentiments.... And to reply the name of the sequel, it should be S3 [silent Storm Sentinel]

[Biggles]

I was about to close this topic, but I'll leave it open for the time being as you explained yourself in your actual post.

 

It is unfortunate but inevitable that games will be compared to other games. Taken in it's own right, S2 is a groundbreaking foray into the world of squad level, turn based games.

 

BUT, most of us who are fans of the genre have been spoilt by some truly exceprional games in the past. These were not without there flaws, but memory certainly sweetens them, and when a new game arrives we expect it to do everything we loved about the old games and more.

 

That's not always possble, nor is it desirable. If every game just did what older games did then things would start to seem a bit same-ish pretty quickly. There's some stuff I would love to see in a newer game, in fact a lot of the things you mention I really hope make it into another game at some stage. Even better I keep hoping that game will be JA3..

 

This game is NOT JA3. it's not even it's 'Spiritual Succesor'. This is Silent Storm. It's only ever going to BE Silent Storm. Add-ons may expand on it, mods will improve it, but it's a game in it's own right. Not everything is perfect, not everything is how fans of other TB games may expect, but it's a bloody fantastic game nonetheless.

 

I am sure the UFO:AM boards have the same sort of posts happening right now! People compalining about all the stuff it's missed from the classic UFO/X-Com games. I don't like UFO:AM .. but not because it failed to be a modern X-Com, I don't like it because IT isn't a good game (IMHO). The devloper's of UFO:AM had to repeatedly tell people it WAS NOT a succesor to X-COm and that the Freedom Ridge code had been dropped entirely, but no-one seemed to listen.

 

Now Nival have created a great game with obvious inspiration and love for some our favourite games, but instead of praise for what they got right, and sensible suggestions for what didn't work so well, they cop this sort of flaming for not being like JA2 in this way & that way.

 

OK... that's my rant. Topic will stay open unless it gets nasty. But if you really want to voice your concerns to Nival... wouldn't it be better to write them a constructive email?

[Hell Kitty]

I agree with everything Biggles said. I think you shoot yourself in the foot from the get go by claiming S^2 is a "spiritual successor of sorts" of JA2. It's not. They are both turn-based squad games, and Nival were influenced by JA2, but it's no more a spiritual successor to JA2 than any game of it's type.

[Conte]

II am sure the UFO:AM boards have the same sort of posts happening right now! People compalining about all the stuff it's missed from the classic UFO/X-Com games. I don't like UFO:AM .. but not because it failed to be a modern X-Com, I don't like it because IT isn't a good game (IMHO). The devloper's of UFO:AM had to repeatedly tell people it WAS NOT a succesor to X-COm and that the Freedom Ridge code had been dropped entirely, but no-one seemed to listen.

 

I completely agree with you about S2 not being JA3, but regarding UFO:AM (a game that i like after all) i think its developers played slightly dirty: from the title to the interface their game is done to collect UFO fans (geoscape, bases, UFO interceptions and so on...), but then when people says "WTF, you screwed up UFO!" they immediatly say "NONONONO, this is not UFO's sequel". IMO if they would have done like Nival did with S2 (a game to collect JA2 fans BUT with its OWN, well defined, DIFFERENT identity), they would have recived a lot more of positive reviews and a lot less complaints...

[polo]

that's pretty stupid. People keep whining how it's not better than ja2...it's because it's not meant to try and beat it. UFO:AM is different as the ufo fan base has been shat on repeatedly. This is a stand-alone game that hasn't ripped anybody off. The hud resembles ja2. So do a lot of games.

 

I think this game got a lot of good reviews. But it hasn't been released in the US properly yet so thar?

[uly]

Ahem. Okay. I realize that I wasn't being fair suggesting that S2 was supposed to be JA3 in spirit, even though I had earnestly thought that to be the case. Not to say that I wasn't at fault here, but I think I had that belief because, prior to the S2 release, there was hardly any previews that didn't mention S2 following in JA2's footstep. I guess I just got the wrong impression over time.

 

Anyway, I retract all my statements concerning S2 not being JA3, and I apologize to anyone who was offended by those comments.

 

That said, I still stand by the points I mentioned that could improve the game, namely: deeper character development, humor, weapon mods and equipment, and better world map and time progression. I know I have no credit to claim to be unbiased, but I'm still gonna say that I'd have recommended these features judging S2 on its own merits. And I wouldn't think adding these features could be considered ripping off JA in any way; these are simple ideas that are hardly unique to JA.

 

And now I shall preceed to kill myself.

 

Just as soon as I finish the Allies campaign anyway.

[Matt Helm]

Frankly, there are a lot of players who got sick and tired of the whining and moaning from the supposedly professional mercenaries in JA2. I am just as glad that S2 troopers have less to say.

[Biggles]

Uly ... try the Axis campaign too

 

We'd hate to saee you kill yourself without playing both sides!

[uly]

I'm on the Axis campaign, that's why I'm gonna live at least until I finish everything...

[Tabu_NiW]

I believe that the devolopers of S2 have thought long and hard about all the features you mention in your post (and some more features you didn't mentioned but who would have made this great game even better). But as a matter of fact, the development of a good game is not only influenced by what the developer(and the gamer) want, but also time and money.

If given more of the above, time and money, I'm quite sure Nival would had implemented more features. But now, at least from what I heard, they did made some good money withe the sales of S2. Maybe they will include some off your suggestions in the Addon/Sequel.

[Galland]

!S

 

I am surprised over the fact that this turned out to be such a interesting thread, especially since I really thought that it would be a mindless rant, and not a well stated and well thought over stated oppinion. I tend to agree a bit with uly, regarding the critique, not the part about JA, since I havent played that game... so I really dont have any oppinions there. I do think that the main characters in the game should be a little more fleshed out, I mean, the bosses are quite faceless as of now. I also really would like to have more choices when it comes to your squads appearance and the like.

[Biggles]

I've been thinking about the 'bosses' and I realise what it is about them, that for me, makes them seem a little empty.

 

There is no feeling of an ongoing battle of wits against a particular adversary. I think this is where the game loses some depth. Because in S2 we don't know the enemy. It's part of the plot, and essential, but because of that we need some other nemesis to take the heat, and play the fall guy. That would make th eenemies have more meaning.

 

There are some named characters you discover throughjout the game, both enemies and civilians. But there is no history to them. A few more cutt scenes, perhaps triggered on theiir deaths, or on sighting them, would have helped a LOT. Even some sort of briefing room at the base. So when you anted to, you could go and get a briefing on what information was available. Even if it was just the same info that you already have, but presented in a more story like manner, by a commanding officer, it would add an amazing amount to the immersion.

 

And I don't believe it's undoable either, you could do it the same way as other cut scenes are done.

[uly]

!S

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I agree with what Tabu_NiW said: I know that developers are working under financial constraints as much as they are under their creative wants. I'm sure Nival did want to create an involving story and memorable characters, and there are glimpses of this that can be picked up from the game. I couldn't help but think that a lot of these were cut from the final product, perhaps to make the deadline or budget. I mean, characters like Helena is ripe for characterization. And that Axis officer that talks through the phone in the base, I'd love to see what else he can do other than sounding dumb. "Achtung!" That Oberst H-something was also very underused for someone that has his own unique model, as is that general from the German factory, the one that looks like the bad guy from Indana Jones; Uwe something. And then there's Newhouse, whom I can barely remember if I actually saw, which I must have if he was under interrogation. As such, when I read about his daring escape, it really didn't mean anything to me. The opening sequence in the 1st mission were somewhat nonsensical as well, and really don't link to anything else at all.

 

Having faithfully read the manual, I was given the impression that I'd be playing an elite squad that carry out normal elite squad missions, but during some of these missions I'd stumble onto some great conspiracy. I can tell you that I didn't get this feeling from the game at all: I was after the conspiracy from the get-go, even before I should have known there to be a conspiracy. It's almost absurd that my squad never had any false leads, and from every mission I was able to gain bucketloads of clues. If only WWII intel was that easy.

 

But like I said, these are all weakness in content and not the engine. I think fixing all these could be a bit beyond the scope of a mod, but I'm sure an expansion pack could do just that. I'm really hoping to see something along this line in the Sentinels' feature list...

[Wicky]

It's hard to predict what will be the outcome of Silent Storm, but as long as it is selling good, there will be further development and that keeps the hopes up for everyone, that the game someday lives up to each of our individual expectations.

 

And in my humble opinion, the best for all of us would be a licensing of the truly fantastic, breath-taking and mind-boggling engine to other gaming companies. This would earn Nival a lot of bucks, and us gamers a truly awesome choice of great games. Every game better or worse has a limit, on how long you can play it before it gets boring, but licensing can extend that period up to a multiple of it's lifespan, as we have seen with Baldur's Gate melting into Icewind Dale series or Planescape Torment, while having a successor and several expansion sets on it's own on top of that. Or Quake, after the one millionth and first optimisation melting into Wolf-ET and Halflife and countless other clones, still a good choice after the decade it already exists

Pardon me for going off-topic a bit, but I couldn't resist spreading this thought... A science fiction game with aliens under the S2 engine.. yummie Or a fantasy setting turn based game with magics and warriors and archers, where a blast fireball puts a castle to ashes, all under the S2 engine... This thought is hard to resist for me

And back to topic: This is the only way I could imagine a Jagged Alliance 3 game under this engine, while S2 will always stay S2.

 

Wicky

[Kintaro]

Well, my critique:

 

-Too many shadows and too few in-game options: It would be nice to somehow worsen the quality of the shadows in-game.

 

-Some levels too dark: WTF, I can't see shit in some levels with the shadows enabled.

 

- Too many enemies: I am in Switzerland right now, and 6 vs. 50 enemies is ridicolous.

[NightRaven]

I've been thinking about the 'bosses' and I realise what it is about them, that for me, makes them seem a little empty.

 

There is no feeling of an ongoing battle of wits against a particular adversary.  I think this is where the game loses some depth. Because in S2 we don't know the enemy. It's part of the plot, and essential, but because of that we need some other nemesis to take the heat, and play the fall guy. That would make th eenemies have more meaning.

 

There are some named characters you discover throughjout the game, both enemies and civilians. But there is no history to them. A few more cutt scenes, perhaps triggered on theiir deaths, or on sighting them, would have helped a LOT. Even some sort of briefing room at the base. So when you anted to, you could go and get a briefing on what information was available. Even if it was just the same info that you already have, but presented in a more story like manner, by a commanding officer, it would add an amazing amount to the immersion.

 

And I don't believe it's undoable either, you could do it the same way as other cut scenes are done.

 

Biggles, I read this and wanted to make a few comments. Being that Silent Storm was about World War 2, it wasnt meant to have 'character' development. If it were, then it would essantially be fiction. In WW2 the soldiers were to slay thier adversary, and forget them. Leaving emotion at the door, if you will. SS does this pretty well in my opinion. If a platoon was sent to disable an enemy commander, they were given an appoximate location, and perhaps a photo, not a dialog of his personal life. If anything, SS needs more background on your squad, I agree with that.

 

I really dont want this game to be bogged down with a big sensative story. WW2 was about killing the enemy, and winning the war, even though SS takes a lot of the seriousness away from that.

[Tarot]

Good ideas and nice thoughts, ppl!

 

I agree to the fact, that more cutscenes for the 'bosses', even small ones, would add a lot to the gameplay. For example the mission, where you have to defend the warehouse or something like that in england against the german assault with the nice 'cutscene' of the enemy sniper taking out the guard in the guard tower. That made that mission my favorite! And that 'cutscene' was about 5 seconds long at most... Some more of that, and it would have been perfect... Hmm, 'When we interrogated him, he told us that...' why use just some text, when it would have been easy to make the interrogation with the talking heads instead..? just needs one more head to play as the commander...

 

As for the day/night cycle, I too was really disappointed about the fact, that you even have skills for night ops, but really dont know, if you have any opportunity at all to use in the game... Modding this into the game could turn to be even impossible.

 

The idea about the sectors, like in ja, or ja2 is a good one, and (I think) pretty easy to mod. All you need to change, would be the world maps, and the maplinks for the gameclues... just make sectors to the map, like in a real map, with coordinates, and link the clues all to open new areas, not just the main area. Really just some low level modding after all... I myself dont have time to make any modding, but there are a lot of ppl, who could make these changes easily. Anyway, the game can be made atleast (semi)linear, with every clue opening one or two new sectors...