Which RBweapons for the aliens?

[Aralez]

As the poll about giving RB-weapons to the aliens ended with a ~3:1 victory for the yes-voters, i open the next round of this issue.

But as a poll would be imposible due to the large number of available weapons, i decided to do a new thread here instead of a poll.

 

The topic:

 

Which weapons (of the RB-Mod and the original ones) shall the Cudgels, Tumours and Retis get in their loadoutpool AND which weapons not?

[BlackAlmaz]

i say anything as long as we get high levels quick and more soldiers...to keep it balanced

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Rets: Get gauss gun, needler(Maby?), Gamma Partical guns, Heavy PSI, Warp Resonator/Warp Destroyer. Do NOT Get Nuker, BFG XXXX, Hover Launcher, Any other big, dangerous gun.

 

Cudgels: "Lurker" Class Long Range Pistol, Saiga, Neostead/CAWS, Flame Thrower, Alien 2 Gun, Smaw/Slaw/Rocket Spitter, XM-8, G11, G36, Steyr, Minigun/DB Machine gun, Warp Resonator/Warp Destroyer. Do NOT get Nuker, BFG, Hover Launcher, or any other big explosive weapon.

 

Tumours (Who are these ones again?) See Cudgle entry.

Morelmen: See Cudgel Entry.

[Lurker]

I haven't been able to try the HeavyPsi weapon yet.

 

But, I would say no to HeavyPsi for aliens - 55 meter range.

 

You have two sources of protection against psi-toting aliens, a psi unit of your own to recapture your alien-controled guy, and shooting the psi alien dead. Sometimes you can control the psi alien, but not always. If the the HeavyPsi alien is 55 meters away behind a tree, you'll never be able to shoot him dead in time.

 

Of course, you can shoot your own guy getting rid of the Psi-control on your soldier, but you only have seven soldiers, and there's still that HeavyPsi Reticulan hiding behind a rock 55 meters away, waiting to control another soldier.

 

Even 36 meter BFG9000 or 44 Meter Nuker can't get an alien with HeavyPsi at 55 meters.

 

Plus, you don't want to give aliens even more psi, because even as they now are, they'll be trying to psi control your BFG toting soldiers, and that will be bad enough.

 

No, to more Psi for aliens.

[Lurker]

Then you just need to make sure that whatever you give the aliens, two or three of your soldiers together have something that can match the aliens for range and power.

 

It's going to be a trial and error thing. You would probably give the aliens a lot of the new weapons at first, and then be open to taking a few of the weapons off the list as people start complaining and can't keep their soldiers alive.

 

I'm with Facehugger, no BFG or Nuker for aliens.

 

I think that the Aliens don't know how to mount a Gatling Gun, Warp Resonator, or Warp Detonator. Qualveg and Slooz can't use them so maybe Reticulans shouldn't be able to use them either? The Warp Res and Warp Det weapons are human weapons, and human manufactured weapons, and thus I would be prone to say no to giving those weapons to Reticulans.

 

Thus 'no' all around to the human manufactured Laser weapons and the Human Manufactured Plasma weapons that use the Hybrid Power cell?

 

If the gun is something that we manufacture from the Development tab, then it kind of suggests by its nature that the aliens shouldn't have it?

 

If the gun is something we find in bases, then there's a possibility the Reticulans should be able to find one and use one, as long as it's not too powerful?

 

A lot of trial and error and balancing to be done. And when someone has played Rebalance 6.0 all the way through to the end, he would be in a better position to say what the Reticulans should have and what they shouldn't have.

 

If the game player can't make it to the end of the game on Hard setting because the Reticulans have a certain gun they shouldn't have, then we know that gun shouldn't be on the list for the aliens.

 

It will take some time for the jury to come in on this question.

[Lurker]

Give aliens all handguns except:

 

Laser Pistol - Human manufacture and uses Hybrid Power Cell.

Enhanced Laser Pistol - No to aliens

Shocker - No way give to aliens.

No to mini-launcher.

Needler borderline? I'd say no.

No BFG4500 to aliens.

No SniperHandgun to aliens.

 

--

 

Rifle: Give some of them to aliens.

 

No Laser Rifle to aliens - Human manufactured and uses Hybrid Power cell.

No Enhanced Laser Rifle - Uses human manufactured Hybrid Power Cell.

No Plasma Rifle - Human manufactured.

No Enhanced Plasma Rifle - Uses human manufactured Hybrid Power Cell.

No Plasma Shotgun - Human manufactured.

No Enhanced Plasma Shotgun - Uses Human Manufactured Hybrid Power Cell.

Neostead - borderline? I'd say no.

No Accuracy Internation to aliens, no Barret Sniper Rifle, No Falcon ZVI - the aliens have to be in range in order for you to kill them, or none of your soldiers are going to make it out alive. I have noticed that the Reticulans seem to start farther away from your soldiers in version 1.3, if your soldiers are carrying sniper rifles. Don't want to give these 70 meter sniper rifles to the aliens. You'll all be dead before you can get into range to shoot back. The Psi Projector only has a 30 meter range.

HKPSG1 Sniper Rifle borderline? I'd say no.

You could probably give the Aliens the Remington 700, or do they have it already?

NO HeavyPsi for aliens.

GammaFlakGun and GammaParticle Thrower - Borderline? They look like alien guns, so I would say yes for now.

SawnOff and OICW - borderline?

No SNIPER gun for aliens.

No RailSniper for aliens.

No PsiBurner for aliens.

 

--

 

Heavy Weapons: Have to be careful here!

 

No Rocket Spitter - Human manufactured gun and ammo.

Super Striker - borderline?

M79 Grenade launcher - borderline?

No Warp Resonator for aliens - human manufactured and requires Heavy Armor

No Warp Demolition - borderline, but I'd say no, human manufactured.

No Gattling Gun and no Double Barrel Machine Gun - You don't want to give the Aliens any kind of long-range heavy machine gun that you can't run away from or get out of the way, or your whole team is going down in the opening seconds of a mission. Maybe the aliens shouldn't have any weapons that require Heavy Armor? Though the collapsible machine guns and rocket launchers might give you enough time to run and get into range of them, since they will have to kneel to deploy them? I'd say no all around to the weapons that require the use of Heavy Armor. If you have to run towards an alien in order to get into range of the aliens so you can shoot them, you'll be dead before you ever get there if they have the human-made heavy weapons. Once again, the Psi Projector only has a 30 meter range. The Heavy Weapons and their power have been your only protection against the Reticulan's superior speed and range, throughout much of the game.

No BFG9000.

No Nuker for aliens.

No GattlingLaser

Warp Destroyer II - borderline? Probably yes. You'll lose soldiers, but not your whole team?

A2Gun - Yes, give it to the aliens and see how we do.

Hover - Yes again. If you have used the Hover you know that the gun gives you enough time to run away and get out of the blast zone of that one. So, I would say yes for now, and see how it goes. Though, now that I think about it, you will lose your whole team if one of those Hover rockets is launched into the starting room of a UFO where your whole team is trapped and can't run away. Is there any way to give the Hover rocket launcher to aliens, except when they are inside UFO's? Probably no, so then no to the Hover.

 

So, then no to SLAW and no to OSAW? The current Alien Rocket Launcher pesky enough already, without having to give them more? I'd probably say yes to SLAW and to OSAW, and see how we do? Borderline on the SLAW and OSAW!

[BlackAlmaz]

okey if the mod will be the way lerker wants it...there is no point making it

 

i hate snipers...but it adds a real risk of getting shot down while running

 

and the rest...well

 

 

and i agree with psi...to belance it out...take out psi full stop

[Lurker]

I disagree. There's a point to it. The Aliens should get some of the original non-Rebalance weapons that they currently don't have, like the Neostead?

 

There are many of the rebalance weapons that the aliens shouldn't have, but with the new RBweapons in our hands, there are many of the original weapons that the aliens don't have that they should now have.

 

There has to be a balance found, and that's the point.

 

I believe that the aliens do have access to some of the sniper rifles already. I distinctly remember a couple of times being sniped at by a Cudgel with a Remington 700. I had to run towards him to shoot him.

 

But, I don't think they should have the very best sniper rifles. If you are in an open field and you have to run towards them in order to shoot them, you are not going to make it.

[Lurker]

Let's talk realities here by running through a couple of scenarios.

 

As you know at the Hard Difficulty Setting, you can get as many as 30 or 40 Reticulans per mission.

 

I have done street fighting with Reticulans in a scenario where in the first area or first part of the mission there were six Reticulans that had the Alien Rocket launcher. But, it's doable, because there's plenty of cover and the aliens frequently have to walk towards you in order to shoot their 40 meter Alien Rocket Launcher, and I had some Psi Projectors on soldiers with good statistics along with some 60 meter sniper rifles on my soldiers.

 

Now, let's assume that the game randomly gives six of the Reticulans the Gatling Gun. There they are 70 meters away shooting at your team right at the start of the game. In order to get off a shot at them with your BFG9000, you will have to run 35 meters towards them in order to get into range of one of them. You'll never make it. If every soldier has a BFG9000, your whole team will be dead before you ever get into range to shoot back.

 

Now let's assume that only one Reticulan has a Gatling Gun, and you have two people in Heavy Armor each with a Gatling Gun. The Alien will have better stats and thus better range. So once again, the Reticulan will start shooting first, and then your men in Heavy Armor will have to run towards the Alien in order to get into range so that they can shoot, except they can't run in Heavy Armor. Both your soldiers will probably be dead before they get into range, even though they only have to walk ten meters to get into range. I seriously doubt that either one of your soldiers will ever get off a shot.

 

Now let's give two soldiers in Bio Armor the BFG9000, and send them out onto an open plane against a single Reticulan who has a Gattling Gun. They are 70 meters apart, and the Reticulan starts shooting immediately. The soldiers in the Bio Armor have to sprint in order to get into range so that they can kill the Reticulan. I think the first soldier will be dead before he gets even half-way to the Reticulan, and I think the other soldier will be dead as well by the time he gets into range so that he can fire his BFG9000. Then the rest of your soldiers will die unless the single Reticulan runs out of ammunition.

 

When it comes to UFO:AM, range is everything. If the aliens can shoot at you, and you can't shoot back, then you are dead. It's that simple. If the aliens have range on you, and you can't run to find cover, you are dead. If they have range on you, you'll eventually die anyway, even if you find cover.

 

If the aliens have the same best weapons that you do, and the range statistics are equal, but there are forty of them and seven of you, then you are dead.

 

Due to popular demand and angry customers, Altar had to adjust the range and power of some of the alien's weapons in versions 1.2 and 1.3, so that every mission against the Reticulans wasn't ending in failure. The truth is that game players will give up and stop playing if there is no way to win, or if they frequently lose their whole seven man team in the first minutes of a tactical mission. Surrounding the seven man team with five rocket launching Reticulans at the start of a tactical mission was voted down in a major way by everyone over at the Altar site.

 

If you give the Reticulans a range advantage by giving them the best sniper rifles and the Gatling gun, I believe you'll have game players voting down the Rebalance 6.0 in a major way. The Reticulans frequently have a range advantage already, because they usually have a lot of Heroic statistics in comparison to your soldiers. Giving the Reticulans your best long-range guns means that you are going to die.

 

Giving the Reticulans your best and most powerful mid-range guns, now that's a different story, but then again, it pays to remember that there are only seven of you and potentially forty of them. A mission inside a UFO wouldn't last very long if half the aliens had the BFG9000, or the WarpDestroyerII for that matter? I don't think it would take too long until you are dead. It would be interesting, though, to see what happens if four or five of the Reticulans inside a UFO have a Neostead.

[Lurker]

Like I said a week or so ago, "A balance has to be found."

 

You don't want the Reticulans to be pushovers or paper dolls. And most people who play UFO:AM don't want a game where you are losing 25 percent of your tactical missions against the Reticulans. Losing one in ten against the Reticulans might be acceptable to some and unacceptable to others.

 

The general goal is that there should be a way to win every mission, though lose some soldiers along the way. That feels like a right balance. Altar is right there with version 1.3. With some game saving, I have been able to win every mission against the Reticulans, but I sometimes can't keep every soldier alive no matter how much I save and reload. That's the right balance, the one that the people petitioned for over at the Altar site.

 

Anyway, that's the point. We want people to want to play the game without getting overly discouraged.

 

So, find out what sniper rifles the aliens already have, and then given them the next one up on the list as well? That's where I'm going. If they have the Remington 700, then maybe they should have the HKPG sniper thing as well. But, the aliens shouldn't have them all - Altar didn't give all the sniper guns to the aliens either.

 

Altar had to find the right balance, in order to please the average customer. That's the point of rebalancing.

[BlackAlmaz]

whats the balance if we have all the good guns ..power and long range...and they some some what poerfull short range weapons..

 

now come on..they are smarter...so they know range kills.....

 

and i dont think the bfg would be human

[Lurker]

Exactly! I think!

 

BlackAlmaz and I are not as far apart in our opinions as we might think.

 

My suggestion is that since we now have a lot of new powerful Rebalance sniper weapons, then the Reticulans should be given some of the older original sniper rifles of ours that they formerly did not have.

 

The aliens shouldn't be given our best, or every mission will be like the Russian base, and everyone will be complaining. But they should be given some of our old sniper rifles that they formerly did not have. Maybe they should be given the Barrett and the Accuracy International? The right balance has to be found.

 

What's the natural balance of UFO:AM? The natural balance is that there are forty of them and only seven of us, yet we have better weapons to counteract their superior numbers.

 

Some have suggested that the Reticulans should be given the new Needler, the new WarpDestroyerII, and the old Warp Demolition device. I say fine, give these weapons to them. You will lose some of your favorite soldiers, and there will be nothing you can do to stop it. Fine. That might be a good thing.

 

But, I also point out that if the aliens have so many of the new Rebalance weapons and all of our best original weapons as well, then players will not only be losing soldiers, they will be losing missions, lots and lots of missions.

 

I submit for consideration that if the average player is losing more than ten percent of his tactical missions against the aliens, and if there is nothing he can do about it, then he will start complaining. Then some of the things that we have given the aliens will have to start coming off the list.

 

Finally, we are all blowing smoke, tossing dice, and just plain guessing. None of us will know for sure how the game should really be balanced until a bunch of us have played Rebalance 6.0 all the way through. Then we will know better what should be on the list of alien weapons and what should not be.

 

If people are losing more than ten percent of their tactical missions, and saving and reloading can't stop them from losing, they will demand that certain weapons be taken away from the aliens. If the aliens are too easy to beat, and you never lose a soldier even at the Hard Setting, then people will be demanding that we give the aliens some more powerful weapons.

 

The point of balance is the point that we seek. In the end, the right balance will come through trial and error, just like it did for Altar and version 1.3 of UFO:AM.

[Lurker]

Over on the Altar site, static223 was complaining something to the effect that with all the new uber weapons or super weapons in the new Aralez rebalance, the Reticulans are now too easy to beat.

 

As a solution, it was suggested by some that a few more of the weapons, old and new, be given to the Reticulans.

 

I'm afraid that when it comes to finding the right balance for the new Rebalance, Aralez is just going to have to jump off the cliff and see where he lands. With all the variables involved, there's a thousand ways to do it right and a thousand ways to do it wrong. In fact, there's a thousand different ways to do it, period.

 

I have a hunch, gut feeling, or intuition that Aralez isn't going to get it right the first time. I just don't see how he can. The aliens will either be too strong, or they could end up remaining way too weak.

 

So, it's going to take periodic tweaking over the weaks and months to get it just right. It took Altar two or three months before they had a balance in version 1.3 that most people were not complaining about. Yet, two months later after the release of version 1.3, we all can see ways that Altar could improve the balance of version 1.3.

 

With Aralez's rebalance, it's never going to be perfect, but it should be acceptable or satisfactory to the majority, when he finds the balance that he decides to keep.

 

Time will tell.

[Aralez]

Ok, so here are the thoughts of you atm:

 

No to BFG's, Warp weapons and Nukers

No to the new PSI-weapons

No to the Gyro-weapons like the laser gatling etc.

No to giving Reticulans human weapons

No to advanced sniper guns for the Transgenants.

 

and

 

Yes to all other "ordinary" human weapons for the Transgenants

Yes to Grenades for the Aliens except Hypnogas (PSI!) and Nanotech

Yes to knives and the SAW

 

So this leaves me some questions, still:

 

-C4 ?

-Mini Launcher (isn't too powerful imo)

-Stunner (has it's weaknesses, too)

-And what about the Autocannon ?

 

Please answer this final questions and i will start my work.

[Kermel]

Long range doesn't beat anything. Even in a clear open field you can always lay a curtain of smoke grenades and charge : nothing can counter that and the sniper will fall effortlessly.

 

On the other hand I do feel that some of the heavy weapons are too powerful. They take the aliens down in fractions of a second. If they were used against our soldiers, we wouldn't be able to react fast enough, even with the best tactics.

 

I don't know, maybe those weapons should be softened a bit (for both humans and aliens). Also, aliens should have balanced sets of weaponry : it just isn't right to find a whole team of reticulants with missile launchers : there should be one heavy weapon and one sniper for every 5 or 6 of them.

[Aralez]

Kermel, i will try to do exactly what you prpopsed in the last part of your post.

 

As for the other suggestion (Soften them down), what weapons were you thinking about? The early heavy weapons (C4, SAIGA12 etc.) or the later weapons (BFG's , Warpdestroyers etc.?). About the last ones: If you play a ordinary game without the allitem-cheat you won't see them that often, believe me. Most of them are VERY rare, so most of the times you will have only one BFG900 in an entire game. For the earlier weapons: I really tried hard to make them balanced by calculating existing (ingame) weapon damages and ranges. If you think one or two weapons are a bit to powerful nonetheless, please tell me which one and i will take a critical look at them

[Kermel]

Oh, I wasn't taking about the new weapons, but the existing deployable heavy weapons, like the railgun. Mmmm, I'm going to shoot my men with one of them, to see how the last. It should be fun

 

Another thing, about psi power. You know, you can always use the Psi Cover armor, which makes you quite invulnerable to psi power. Maybe people should start having their nuker and BFGunner wear them.

 

BTW, some days ago I was defending a base and was about to nuke the lifters when some reticulant went out of a corner and psi-controlled me. I "only" lost three men, but it was fun (of course it was all my fault, I should have cleared the area before placing my nuker in position). More casualties followed, actually all of them, so I was thankful not to be playing in Ironman-mode :)

[Aralez]

Yeah, the save-button is a good friend of me, too Oh and and don't worry, the human deployable weapons will NOT be given to the aliens.

 

>>>Maybe people should start having their nuker and BFGunner wear them.<<< That was exactly the idea behind those armours. I hope other users realize that, too !

[Lurker]

Kermel has a point. I haven't used the smoke grenade to protect myself, because I considered it completely worthless in version 1.2 of UFO:AM. I guess I'm going to have to go find out if it has been improved since then?

 

We each have such different play styles. It's amazing.

 

--

--

 

-C4?

 

Will the aliens actually be willing to throw it and risk blowing themselves up as well? It seems to have a pretty good bang and area effect. If it could be used to wipe out your whole team in one shot at the start of a UFO mission, then I would say no. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. Can you run a test?

 

-Mini Launcher (isn't too powerful imo)

 

I was going to try that one tonight. I imagine it would be fine to give it to them.

 

-Stunner (has it's weaknesses, too)

 

What's the Stunner? I missed that one. If it's the shocker, I say no way. Don't want all seven of your soldiers stunned or paralyzed in the first seconds of a tactical mission.

 

-And what about the Autocannon?

 

Borderline, though my rookie soldiers who were using it didn't seem to do much damage, so I would probably say yes.

[Lurker]

It's the Berzerk armor that should be given to your BFG9000 carrier, right? Is there some other armor that makes you immune to psi?

[Kermel]

Well, I just tried shooting my own men with the Collapsible Rail Gun. They were all level 10 or beyond, so they would have Hit Points over Very Good, a couple of them being Heroic. Well, the only one who lasted more that one second was the guy wearing berseker armor (he stood there for around two seconds). Combat armor and psicover men fell instantly, while those wearing bio armor or enhaced combat armor stood for around three quarters of second, more or less (well, I didn't actually chrono it ).

 

So, definitely, there is a lack of reaction time.

[Aralez]

The advanced heavy one is immune against psi and 90% against Stun, the regular heavy one is immune against stun and 90% against PSI.

 

Ok C4 and Minilauncher will be included, albeit not in big numbers, ok. Oh and yes the Stunner is the Shocker :o And ok i will not give it to the aliens.

 

Autocannon will be include, ok, if it proves to be too strong, it will simply be romoved in the next version.

 

Ok, i will start work now. I think a new uploadable version will be here soon (v.5.6), it will not include the glossary yet, but later versions will

[Aralez]

Kermel, lol I think those crew-guys are seeing you now in a new light As you can see there are already strong weapons in the game even without the RB-Mod.

[Lurker]

Up above, I think Aralez summarized our concerns and wishes more than adequately. Go to it, Aralez!

 

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Regarding BlackAlmaz's complaints, I would restate or paraphrase what I said a week ago, "Let Aralez first create a Normal Rebalance Mod in which 97 percent of the missions are winable in Hard Difficulty setting, with a bit of saving and reloading. Then when Aralez has everything working right, he can then go in and create an Iron-Mod version of Rebalance 6.0 for BlackAlmaz, in which the aliens have access to all the weapons and only 3 percent of the missions are winable in Easy Mode."

 

After BlackAlmaz has been wiped from the map numerous times while playing the Iron-Man version of the Rebalance, then he can approach Aralez with his own list of things he wants taken away from the aliens.

 

Sound like a plan? It would be an interesting process to observe.

[Lurker]

Autocannon will be included, ok, if it proves to be too strong, it will simply be removed in the next version.

 

Ok, i will start work now. I think a new uploadable version will be here soon (v.5.6).

 

>>

>>

 

Sounds like a great plan to me! Thank you Aralez, and once again, I salute you!