ShadowBlade Posted October 6, 2003 Share Posted October 6, 2003 Well, Kozlov, I think that the storyline's OK. Besides, by criticizing this game like you have done, you're basically doing the same to the X-COM. Yes, I know UFO:AM is not related to X-COM, but in many aspects it's the same. For example, the starting (low) terran tech against the alien weapons, the research method, etc. What point would it have to play a game you know you can't win? (i.e. the aliens are too powerful) What fun would it have to have to wait years for research to be completed? And about the aliens' initial approach, the bio-weapon attack, I think they made their first move that way to cut the trouble of killing us face to face and risking equipment and possibly soldiers. Think about this, it's a medium to large-sized alien invasion force against a whole planet, like 1 alien against 1000 humans ratio! (Assuming there are 2-3 million troopers in the strike force). Using your "13th century knight" analogy, even a highly trained modern-day soldier would be beaten up by 10 knights, so just imagine going against 1000! All in all, I think the aliens used the spores to reduce the amount of resources spent on annihilating the human race, as I said before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mentora Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 If the game is to be more realistic, it may lose its appeal. So it's a matter of balance between fantasy, gameplay, storyline and realism. What if every mechanics in the game is just a scale of a much bigger picture. Time taken to research may be shrunk to so fast in order to support the flow of the game. Each soldiers may represent not one unit but a company or division. Although this theory seems far fetch, do not forget that this is after all a game. KOZLOV - what if the aliens are from a barren asteroid or a moon like planet whereby gravity is non existence? Even assuming that they come from a planet with gravity, just putting a bigger engine is not as simple task. Wear and tear of UFO has to be tested within the environment. Unless all UFO is equiped with gravity stabilisers like in the STAR WARS X-WING fighters, how are the aliens going to cope with the + and - Gforce? The greatest weapon humans have is the will to live and hope. Just review our history. We were down but never out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCm Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I can explain the fighter Vs UFO thing. Almost all earth planes NOW can exceed human endurance with their specifications. (for example, just because a plane can turn on a sixpence doesnt mean the pilot would survive - all the soft parts of the pilot would be turned to mush!!!!!) Now, the aliens come from a world with lower gravity then us, meaning their cardio-vasuclar system wont be as strong, hence they can take less "g's" then our pilots before the loose consciousness... With the Armour to missles. Aircraft need to be light, armour is heavy. The denser the armour the heavier it is, the more energy it takes to move. All well and good in space, but on earth that would be a problem. Why you biological growths to wipe out mankind? simple - its cheaper then robots/nukes/troops and afterward there will be something useable left over...you just engineer the plant to die after a set period... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paganarh Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I like your points, DarkCm.very logical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindre Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 they don't use biomass to wipe the globe, they use it to rule the universe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terror From the Deep Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Someone said you never knew the motivation after UFO Eenmy unknown which is true but in the second, TFTD you find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozlov Posted October 9, 2003 Author Share Posted October 9, 2003 Hello, my friends. Don't get insulted by criticizm of beloved (by me also) game. I just wanted the "plotline and story" to become more beleivable. Like i said in the beginning - you and I can use our imagination (soldier=division, research shrinkage) but why, if the story can easily be changed to sound real? Well, not in this game, probably, but follow-ups. Biological weapons strike: You're perfectly right the purpose of that was our mass destruction. I guess, some more - with that biomass growth ploy. I wrote it before, just read the topic, it is quite long ShadowBlade: all the point is to make you feel you can't win - than you win. I suggested research beleivable scheme a couple of times in the beginning of the topic.As for middleage abstraction - with modern warfare we're starting to understand, that numbers are meaninless against technology and tactics (Iraq) Mentora: well, it may be another game, with different story. I suggested one in my first article in the topic. DarkSm: good points! Aliens, coming from the planet smaller than Mars is barely an option. Life without atmosphere? - NASA don't look for such planets as the possible life source. Science fiction is full of open space creatures and intelligent planets, but that's barely an option too, for somebody, who learns biology. Anyway, they CAN come from smaller planet ->>gravitation problems. BUT they can use computer-guided craft and won't be suffering (not in this game, i know - here they use manned UFO's) Constructing of Earth - adapted aircraft? - well, they constructed their spores, that's more difficult (it is). Armored vehicles are out of question - we don't make them either (nothing stands a rocket anyway), but remeber the terrible movie called "Independence Day"? - they got shield that stood even against nuke. And what about relativly simple anti-rocket defences (laser/plasma/quark supercannon ). OF COURSE those points are not a directive (oops they didn't think we have fighters left, just neglecting, etc.) - they have alien logic and think different. (How? - they fly only without defences - just a joke) However, all of these issues, I think, are to follow ups. P.S. I feel, that the subjects are repeating themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matri Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hi!Just wanted to add my 2 cents... Spores : Biological entity, a parasite or something similar, makes sense. Self-sufficient, replicates, independant. Good choice for wiping out all life on a planet. Bases/Cities : Military bases aren't easy to destroy, and most are hidden. You capture a base, restore it, send soldiers out to patrol and engage all mutants/aliens in the vicinity. Survivors : We're not ALL idiots... The spores were in the upper atmosphere for days/weeks... Surely someone would have collected a sample and studied it and prepared for it. Air Combat : First off, we have pilots who know their planes inside out, but then again, so do the aliens. But, our pilots also know what to expect from our atmosphere/gravity, and the aliens don't. Secondly, they're in a rush to conduct experiments, so they either don't have fighter cover or just whatever they can spare. Logistics involved in preparing fighter cover is not easy or quick. And have you ever seen a transport ship with the guns of a battleship? Thirdly, arrogance. Come on, you just wiped out an entire planet's population, do you seriously believe there would be survivors, much less survivors that can actually shoot your ship down? Research : Yes, it goes a little too fast to be realistic, but in the later stages it does make sense... You've captured some of the aliens for interrogation. Surely they know SOMEthing about the weapons. You don't just give a rocket launcher to any idiot and call them "highly-trained". Can't think of anything else now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCm Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Oh, and don't forget the aliens are only slightly smarter on average then the humans... Why dont they use CPU controlled planes? for the same reason we dont do it now. We have the tech for it. but things like EMP, Nukes, Radio burst will all interupt the processes. a live brain is faster, more intuative then a cpu. Biology in the long run is cheaper then Technology. biology is self replicating, self modifying, and self repairing. Also, it fits in with the aliens Technology (maybe on their planet the didnt have huge amounts of iron) lets make an earth analogue of the biomass. I know little of plants - but lets use basic vines as our base plant. its within 50 years of technology to make a gm vine, that grows faster, bigger and dies after a set time (you wouldnt want to live in it after). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozlov Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Well, everyone - I'd like to remind that the topic being discussed is: "If the storyline makes any sense" or "the issues you'd like to change in plotline and story in this game or the follow-ups" so i don't understand, why to speak about the biomass and spores. Why did they used them seems to be agreed amongst all of us and, as for me its beleivable. After use of them it's rather logical, that there would be some survivors (bunkers/underground/subs/infected patients in clinical boxes ). The points, that seemed far-fetched to me were (discussed at the beginning of the topic): 1. How small squad can control so vast territories? Existance of another resistance forces helps a little but still. I can be wrong here, if the model is like: they don't really control this territory, only control bases and make some intel. 2. Air combat. How human aircraft can beat superior alien ones, while we know that in the air technology always wins. 3. Research is VERY fast. Don't tell me that long research time will destroy gameplay. It is solved for example if you can USE an item after SHORT time (press here, insert this strange thing here), but it takes a LONG time before you understand how it works and able to reconstruct and make hybrids. Another ideas are warmly welcomed. As well as altenative storylines. For this or another game of this kind Matri: GOOD overview. As for air combat: after 2-3 ships were downed they didn't add fighter support? WW2 : bomber rides were supported by clouds of fighter planes. Neglect? Probably. Anyway, after some time (and lost craft)they have to understand. Gravity? That make sense, but, as technology advances, targetting systems bring the combat into distant one. You don't have to fire that cannon anymore, - its more like press&forget. VERY intresting point with live aliens capturing. Question is: how do we speak with them? - mental control?. That telepathy is always so easy solution, that it makes it unbelievable, like deus ex machina. And if we can, - these are soldiers and technicians - imagine some marine explaining to some 13 century alchemist how to build machinegun. Anyway - very intresting point and might have an impact on research. DarkCm: agree with biology preferrability stuff, - i study that myself I read some nice fiction book about this - called "To the South from Paradise" or something like that: they used genetically engineered animals for everything - as clothes transport in the sea and air - even as toothbrush and scissors. As for comp operated aircraft: we don't have technology for that now - it is in the stage of developing (it was used in Iraq for espionage). It is the airforce future (and not only AIRforce future). We have to control planes too much now, good CPU is all that needed: automated fighter craft with reactions and maneuverability better than any manned ones. How can we beat alien UFOs - is still a question for me. I would like this to be excluded out of the story - fight landed ones, than, when you have the tech - build your craft that can engage alien ones in the air. :alien2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBlade Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I'd like to add another thing, regarding the Reticulans' home planet. I've just researched a technology (Alien Autopsy, I'm not sure) that states that the aliens come from a low-gravity world, having its atmosphere mostly made of oxygen and this explains why the aliens move slowly. I'll get some more details later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matri Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Careful of adding spoilers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowBlade Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Dammit! I'm sorry, should I edit my post to get rid of it or just place a BIG spoiler warning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Cyann Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Nah bit l8e now really, plenty of players woulda red this by now :alien2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkCm Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 sorry to be contradictory, but surely i high oxygen atmosphere would mean that the reticulans metabolism would burn off foods faster and there lives would be shorter and faster. (it would also mean that fires where quite common! maybe giving them a 60% damage reduction on burns?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Well, if their atmosphere is high Oxygen, then doesn't that mean that on earth they would wheeze like a 50 year old smoker? Or like someone climbing Mt. Everest? Besides, maby they don't have nitrogen in their atmosphere, so they find that hard to breath. Who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matri Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 A few of the research options, and 1 in particular, explain how they can function without wheezing. Much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.. Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 About the fighters, in WWII, british pilots shot down many of the superior fighter jets (ME 207 or something like that!) in their inferior propellor driven spitfires and hurricanes... so not always is it technology beats skill in the sky. Maybe the planes we do shoot down in UFO:AM are the one's piloted by idiots hehe... Just a thought S.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matri Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 :angel: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostrider Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 About the fighters, in WWII, british pilots shot down many of the superior fighter jets (ME 207 or something like that!) in their inferior propellor driven spitfires and hurricanes... so not always is it technology beats skill in the sky.That was Messerchmitts ME-262 Schwalbe - SUPERIOR in SPEED to any Allied fighter plane of the WWII - for example its TOP SPEED 540MPH compared to P-51D Mustang's 437MPH is impressive . But it had ENGINE PROBLEMS ( push it too hard and caught FIRE Push it too slow and it also went BURNING :dontgetit: ) and also it was very demanding on the PILOTS qualities . So the Propelled planes managed to learn the tactic how to beat those superior fighters - when they were most vulnerable - during take off and landing ... PS:BTW And at that time Hurricanes were long time pulled out of the fights ( 1942 already out of ALL major actions ) - ME262 came late 1944 and at that time it faced mainly P-51D or P-47D Bomber ESCORTS or British latest SPITFIRE Versions XIV+ or Hawker Tempests ... Other planes were unable to compete with this JET . Fell free to have any qustions PLEASE G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kozlov Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 Ghostrider: just what I was about to say. Impressed of detailes :lashes: The airfight remains problematic as a part of the plot. UFO's run by idiots? Is there some research option to find their IQ levels? A few words about alien nature: they usually have two options - to be humanoid or to be some kind of bugs with a lot of disgusting liquid to spit in every direction. If they're human-like, they just made of negative traits, like egoistic, cruel, like to capture whole Universe, love to humiliate pure cows with lasers (X-Com ) don't like children and flowers. Our negative traits. In other ways - we're bad, but look at them - they're sooo bad that it makes us to look OK. I'm not even addressing the fact that our moral issues are not appliable on them. Bugforms, despite of inhumanly high IQ (by scenario) have only one instinct - to kill everything, that moves, and pretty much done with that. It would be nice to face some other type of them - not alien form of Dr Evil. So many other reasons of capturing the Earth and destroying the humankind can be invented! Hey I'm not telling it isn't the case here...any clues from the Game?It would be a spoiler, probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matri Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Actually yes, but it's a spoiler! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Well, what the aliens are really doing is purely evil, but they seem more business like to me. They don't go out of their way to slaughter humans (except CoE and PheoniX-COMpany troops.) Its just like, "I need your planet, and you won't give it to me, so I need to take it. Sorry." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.. Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 They're f***ing vicious little c***s! I don't consider myself a complete psycho, so I have a little compassion and leave the incapacitated aliens alone, but those little b******s run up to my barely alive guys and plug several rounds in their heads at point blank range!!! Proper Iraqi execution style! I mean talk about vindictive or what! It's not like we just took over their planet, and raped, murdered and pillaged their families! I mean there is a line! pffffttttt! S.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Well, I find that as long as I provide them with another target (such as someone else shooting them) they will ignore my stunned dude until my medic can get there. And I always kill greys unless I need one for research. I get more exp that way, and I don't have to have my valuable alien containment space taken up by 20 something greys. I hold to my idea that they aren't evil, just power-hungry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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