UFO Fanfiction Discussion

[JellyfishGreen]

It's a sort of odd position for XCOM to have - I was working the angle that the aliens don't want the public to know they exist, keeping their existence quiet allows them to get their forces into place before a widespread military response; XCOM don't want the public to know they exist because the aliens would get wind of it and just (secretly) take out XCOM's main base. Or get it shut down.

 

The alternative to the "hidden" war that ends with a strike mission to Cydonia is an all-out war between battleships and nukes and orbital bombardment. For whatever reason, no-one's pushing too hard for escalation, at least while Earth is so far behind in terms of tech.

 

JFG

 

Edit: and a story post to boot! This may come as a shock to many of you.

[FullAuto]

I always saw the aliens fighting a sort of guerilla war, because they wanted to conquer Earth, not destroy it. They'd quite like the knowledge of their existence to seep into the conscious of the great unwashed, to minimise panic among us poor plebs and avoid a widespread military response.

X-Com becoming known is regrettable, but basically unavoidable, and the damage from that is minimal, really, compared to being shut down or wiped out by aliens. Ok, the aliens could find out X-Com exists from their contacts in human governments, but they won't do anything else, will they? They'll just carry on infiltrating anyway, like they would if X-Com didn't even exist, because what better way to win territory than have it handed over to you in a bloodless coup?

Surely the diplomats are technically guilty of treason anyway?

Ok, we don't HAVE to kill the diplomats, but we need to arrest them at least. And put them in a deep dark hole they won't get out of until after the war. If we can't stop alien infiltration (and we can't) we need to take serious measures with anyone who tries to contact the aliens. Word has to get out that it's not a healthy job to have, or everyone will be at it.

[The Veteran]

I think some people are getting really confused here... Yes it is absolutely vital that the aliens don't discover XCom exists but until this encounter and in fact even after the battle, they still don't know that it does! It's not like we're marching to battle with a stanard bearer and shouting "we are X-com the secret alien killers! Oh and by the way our main base is in central Australia..."

 

The point is, X-Com is funded by the UN, the UN consists almost completely of forms containg multiple uses of the sentence 'minimal force'. It doesn't matter what these diplomats were doing (and to be honest they weren't doing anything wrong at all) we were not there to kill them, we were there to destroy the alien threat and defend ourselves from any unforseen aggressors.

 

For all we know those diplomats could have been on some kind of 'peace for humanity' mission. Rick didn't want to start shooting at anyone, that's why he was walking towards them unarmed! Somewhere in the next few posts that all went pearshaped and the world's greatest commandos were shown to have marched straight past a ring of snipers...

 

What went wrong guys? We need to really start thinking about what's going on in these posts...

[FullAuto]

If you read JFG's post, the aliens do indeed know X-Com exists.

As for killing folk, how many battles has the UN won? Exactly. They're so wrapped up in human rights they couldn't carry out a pissing contest, never mind a war. Whenever war needs doing, the UN creates a mandate and then a coalition of forces carries it out. I'm not talking about peacekeeping, btw, but full-on war. X-Com is highly secretive, and I doubt very much a battle for the whole planet is going to be carried out and won by nicely tippy-toeing around the UN. We KNOW the aliens are hostile, the governments know they're hostile, which is the whole reason X-Com was formed. There's no good reason to send diplomats to a hostile presence.

Contact with the aliens subverts governments. We can't let it happen. So we stop it. We can't go about 'defending ourselves' because that's the perfect way to lose. We go on the offensive. Take the initiative.

Shipley informing the alien that it was X-Com's forces is treason. Even attemtping to contact the enemy can be seen as treason in wartime, and it is wartime. If I remember correctly, treason carries a pretty stiff penalty.

[JellyfishGreen]

Before I forget, thumbs up to Storm Turmoil who seems to have read the fic or at least a few of our minds before posting, those look pretty good for first posts.

 

Diplomats, some were businessmen, it looks like whoever's flying the chopper is now in business for themselves. I'm now confused about who's being extorted by our mysterious Japanese company to get alien tech, other than our Martin Terrick that is, and if this Marvin is still on the chopper or what.

 

Things got confusing there for a while but I hope we followed rules of engagement. I'm glad Vet's concerned but I'm worried about how you're going to handle Gia's next action, especially re Marvin's family still in danger.

 

I deliberately let Shipley mention XCOM because I'm postulating the name has leaked, and that the first terror mission was actually a trap intended to eliminate XCOM as a threat. However the aliens (and their spies) don't know much more than the name and the losses incurred. They'd kill to know the personnel count and base location, but are nowhere near that information...yet. I postulated the entire Washington DC mission was to secretly get this "Cbryhhm" to an alien-friendly "diplomat" who would be able to get it back to New York, the UN building, where it could begin mind-scanning for more XCOM info.

 

Anyhow, 1:30 am, good night

JFG

[Snikers]

By the way, my previous post in the thread? I was being sarcastic. Just so you know.

 

These diplomats can't possibly be treasonous. They were sent by their governments, they were following orders. Do you think Earth's nations want an all-out war? An all-out, bloody war with an army of unknown numbers and extremely superior technology that they don't know where to lead an offensive strike against and they have no idea where they'll attack next? These diplomats are there because their governments (if they are of multiple countries) want to keep their options open and avoid unnecessary bloodshed (and it will shed a LOT of blood). The soldiers shooting at X-troops are a bit more of a moral gray, but presumably they were tacked onto the mission by the same governments. Captain America may be in a spot of trouble for firing on X-COM though (and it is NOT the same thing as when X-COM fired on the diplomats. One was a split-second decision that may, in another situation, have saved lives. The other was not.).

 

The only treasonous one here was Shipley, who shouldn't be aware of X-COM existence anyway (but as Jfish said, leaks and all that) and so obviously has been listening where she shouldn't. As well as psionic implants and all that...she obviously is the product of some conspiracy.

 

Speaking of which, I brought this up a few pages back. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't turn this into some done-to-death Hollywood script with black-and-white morality. PLEASE do not make everyone that opposes X-COM either be outrageously evil or outrageously ignorant. I had intended the diplomats to be people with contrary but not necessarily bad goals. They're not all evil - Marvin, even, only acted as he did out of desperation for his family (like Terrick). I fear - only fear, I am not accusing you of this - that the fanfic will turn into some back-and-white, up-or-down trope where everyone that opposes X-COM is a power-hungry sociopath who dies in some gory fashion near the end of the story.

 

Please, none of you take this the wrong way.

[Bomb Bloke]

'Something went wrong with the diversion'... speaking of which, are we gonna try to pull that terror ship out of whereever we sunk it, or are we gonna leave it there? Kinda hard to salvage in a public place, but it's either that or leave it for the population to find on their own.

 

The aliens wouldn't take long to work out there was an organisation working against them. They'd be stupid to expect no resisatance.

 

And the people would be roughly the same. The moment they find out there's aliens in the neighborhood, they'll be wanting to know what their local politician is doing about it.

 

Sure, we don't want either group making sightseeing trips into our bases, bt we can expect the aliens to make it there eventually. Wouldn't be any fun otherwise.

 

Anyway, firing on diplomats won't carry too much of a penalty. The countries involved won't be willing to admit it. I wouldn't encourage it, though. This time round it wasn't X-Com who started shooting, and they had no way of knowing who was a merc and who was just a guy in a suit. Who wears a suit in a snowfield, anyway?

 

Edit:

You don't have to be evil to oppose X-Com, but that doesn't mean such people are welcome to X-Com. At the moment the most visibly power hungry group isn't even trying to stop us, they're just trying to flog stuff.

 

It's a matter of what each character thinks, really. And there's plenty of time for discipline once everyone gets back to base.

[FullAuto]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't turn this into some done-to-death Hollywood script with black-and-white morality.

 

That's what I'm trying to avoid. I don't want X-Com to be some whiter-than-white goody two shoes group that are fighting for love of God, country, and Mom's apple pie. It's war. I doubt there has ever been a war which was good vs. evil. Even the so-called good make dodgy decisions during war. The whole enterprise itself is morally dubious (less so here, as it is for survival) so shades of grey are to be desired. X-Com has been set up to oppose the aliens with force. A faction of humans trying to throw in the towle just aren't going to be popular, and if their efforts result in X-Com being shut down...well, even the most prosaic and practical know it's the end of a well-paying job. Most will certainly fear more, and will take steps.

That's just how human beings do things. Opposing groups settle things by conflict. And not the tea-and-cakes kind. The fact that the diplomats are human, and whether evil, ignorant or not, they are not even the real enemy at hand. But they are siding with the aliens. Shades of grey...

[Snikers]

Anyway, firing on diplomats won't carry too much of a penalty. The countries involved won't be willing to admit it. I wouldn't encourage it, though. This time round it wasn't X-Com who started shooting, and they had no way of knowing who was a merc and who was just a guy in a suit. Who wears a suit in a snowfield, anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've recently been told that, under the conditions Xcom was in when the shooting started, the doctrine in any first-world army would be to withdraw until you could confirm who your enemies are.

 

I dropped the ball. Sorry.

[FullAuto]

Not exactly your usual conflict though, is it?

[Snikers]

Unusual in what way?

 

As for shooting down the diplomats...I'm not going to dispute whether or not that would be the right thing to do given Xcom's circumstances. Xcom, however, would never shoot civilians. It was constructed with the single purpose of protecting civilians from aliens. Whether or not this is an extreme circumstance is irrelevant; militaries are built on absolutes. Genega would never authorize attacking the civilian craft. And if he did, Xcom would be dissolved. It simply couldn't happen, whether or not it's the right thing to do (which it may well be).

 

Oh, and I FullAuto, I wasn't accusing you of black-and-white morality. Warning bells went off in my head more due to Shipley going from a reasonable (if, looking back on it, slightly unsettling) diplomat to a back-stabbing, treacherous mercenary who literally cackles as she makes her nefarious escape.

 

EDIT: Fixed a typo. Of course, now it's immortalized forever in later posts...

[FullAuto]

I didn't think you were. Oh come on, man, you have to love the cackling!

As for X-Com never killing civilians...that sounds odd to me. I'd guess that almost every army has killed civilians, the majority of them on purpose. War is a very bad situation, and very bad things happen. All the time. Killing civilians, especially civilians who are opposing X-Com and bringing about it's end, wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

As for X-Com being dissolved if they did...I doubt the governments are going to drop their first line of defence because we killed some civilians. Accidents do happen. They shouldn't have been there in the first place, etc etc. Tragic.

As to the war, it's unusual because it's a global guerilla war, the enemy isn't human and the tactics and doctrine will have to adapt accordingly. Standard procedure will of course still apply in many cases, but firing first and asking questions later while fighting for the survival of the species...I can't see too many being particularly bothered, you know?

 

"Sir, we've killed some civilians."

*cue omlette-making analogies*

[Bomb Bloke]

Oh, and I FullAuto, I wasn't accusing you of black-and-white mortality. Warning bells went off in my head more due to Shipley going from a reasonable (if, looking back on it, slightly unsettling) diplomat to a back-stabbing, treacherous mercenary who literally cackles as she makes her nefarious escape.

 

It wasn't literally a cackle... But I'm quite tempted to go back and 'fix' that, now.

 

But seriously, if you don't think it fits in/works, I can change it. It was early in the morning when I wrote that.

[FullAuto]

Hang on, black and white mortality?

[Bomb Bloke]

Ok, I've snipped up my last post a little bit. I see it didn't even make gramatical sense at times.

[The Veteran]

Firstly, this is NOT a political post and bears no regard to the world today or at any other point...

 

If we're talking about killing civilians and who will/will not care I think we really need to look at the facts rather than just decide what suits us...

 

FA sorry to point it out in particular but you really hit a bit of a nerve!

 

'I'd guess that almost every army has killed civilians, the majority of them on purpose'

 

I'm in one of those armies and I know how these things work. Yes every army in the world has at some point contributed to human casualties but there are different situations...

 

Usink the UK and US as two prime examples;

 

UK : bombed countless German populations in an attempt to demoralise the enemy and win the war.

US : nuked Japan in order to demoralise the enemy and win the war

UK : Returned from Iraq with trophy pictures and abused POWs for no political gain

US : Killed and abused Vietnamese villagers for no political gain

 

Straight away you see the dividing line between what the government has put a green mark next to and what its coloured in red and consequently pretended never happened...

 

Where does it look like this story is going? Will it be on the radio as it happens as a glorious victory for X-Com? Or will it be on the front page of a tabloid in 5 years time resulting in disgrace and scandal...

 

There is absolutely no way that those men deserved to die. There is also absolutely no reason for any more men to die... The fact that these soldiers (who have been repeatedly marked up as THE grey area) were written into the story as shoot first think later cowboys has just thrown the whole story into the wind.

 

From this point on it has got to be rules of commandment the whole way or when this war is finally over there's going to be the biggest arms race the world has ever seen and the UN is going to tear itself apart...

[storm turmoil]

ultimately, I think that all the troopers involved in the mission are coming off duty- for therapy.

 

seriously, after a brutal debrief ( where Genega's going to rip 'em a few new ones) I think the best conclusion would be that all the troopers are suffering battle fatigue, maybe even post traumatic stress. why?

 

the terror mission, which has driven them all to the point that if you don't shoot first, then you'll never ask any question-ever.

 

let's look at what actually happened- the mission was a failure, casualties were horrific, and the aliens manifested an ability which allows them to decimate any force, against which there is no possible defence,( aside from killing all the aliens. nobody knows about psi defence yet)

 

so, subconsciously, they have all adopted a position of extreme paranoia-otherwise known as shoot anything that moves.

 

and then there's the fact that none of them are expecting humans at a ufo site, and what do you have.

 

despite all of which, the mission is a success, though they don't know it.

 

as for complaints from governments, there won't be any, because the diplomats and businesspeople were never there. and certainly not at a meeting that didn't take place. with aliens that don't exist.

 

truth to tell, most of the governments involved probably don't know about it themselves. this is definately the purview of the men in grey suits.

 

of course, the rules of engagement are going to get a major rewrite. And now might be a good time to play up the 'the agents' and their role in dealing with this sort of thing. certainly the base spooks will have a field day with this stuff.

[Snikers]

From this point on it has got to be rules of commandment the whole way or when this war is finally over there's going to be the biggest arms race the world has ever seen and the UN is going to tear itself apart...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My apologies, again. I'm not familiar with the phrase "rules of commandment". Definition please?

 

(I'm aware I tend to do this alot )

[FullAuto]

I think he means 'rules of engagement'.

 

I see your point about killing civilians, Vet, but I really don't care what a governement decides is ok and what is not. Killing civilians in order to further a military objective is, and always has been, wrong. Nevertheless, it will continue to happen, and I think it should, at some point, happen here. Because everyone does it. In this particular instance, I think this war would be exactly the same. Inconvenient people would be removed. Yes, it's wrong, no, it's not nice to have the 'good guys' do it. But it happens.

Besides, how exactly is anyone going to prove they shot at anyone? If as, Storm Turmoil says, the diplomats were never there, and no one knew about it, how can anyone complain? Even the X-Com troops are going to click that there's something funny going on and say "Helicopter? What helicopter?"

[The Veteran]

Rules of Engagement yeah, don't know where I got the rules of commandment from sounds like I've been talking to too much burning foliage!

 

Anyway I think everything that needs to be said has, in a roundabout way, been said. I'm off back to work now, won't get in till after midnight as it is... I'll be online again on Wednesday if I can. If not not sure, but I'll be back

 

Later guys.

[Snikers]

Just because the countries are sending the diplomats behind Xcom's back doesn't mean that they're not going to be angry, and it's going to be certain they know Xcom knows. You know what they're going to do if Xcom knocks out the helicopter?

 

Foreign Representative: You shot down and murdered our diplomats!

Genega: They were going to turn Earth over to the aliens on a silver platte-

FR: NO! They were going to find a peaceful solution and avoid interplanetary war! Instead you decided to extend this conflict and cause undue death!

Genega: They were a threat to Xcom. We're the world's last hop-

FR: If you deliberately kneecap every effort for negotiation, yes! You have to be stopped before you eliminate any hope of peace.

Genega: I-

FR: Shut up! I can see you're one of two things: completely unable to see any solutions to any problem outside of war, or deliberately keeping yourself in a high-paying position of power as long as possible. Either way, you're a loose cannon. I'm going to tell my superiors to stop funding before you decide to to kill them and install Xcom-friendly puppets, and I'm pretty sure the UN is going to dissolve Xcom.

Genega: You can't...

FR: Unless, of course, you're going to kill me too?

 

And that's when the representative's helicopter has an "accident", no doubt.

[FullAuto]

Sounds good!

Seriously, though, what are the governments going to say? "You shot down our people who weren't there?"

They can either deny the diplomats were there or admit it, they can't deny it and then blame us for shooting at them. I just don't understand making diplomatic overtures this early on. X-Com was formed to combat the alien threat, and they've hardly got started before the governemnts roll over?

[Snikers]

Then they'll admit it. What's Xcom going to do? And besides, this is way too big for the countries to just ignore just because they had diplomats under the table (which they are entirely justified in doing). Xcom just showed itself to be a loose cannon who will attack anyone who acts in any way against their interests. What the hell country would support an organization like that?

 

And yes, I also thought that diplomats showed up a little early...but what can you say, maybe they just want to keep their options open. Maybe what Shipley said about the terror site getting the governments' attentions was right...

[FullAuto]

Maybe. It just seems a little odd, putting such restrictions on people given the task of defending the whole human race.

[Snikers]

By that logic, no military would ever restrict itself, because all of them are fighting for something...well, important enough to them to fight to the death for.