Catalonia

[Space Voyager]

Personally I think that any nation should be allowed self-determination and be able to get independence should the majority want it, but regardless of how you feel whether Catalonia should get its independence or not... I don't think proclaiming the referendum illegal and prohibiting it will help. Also using the police to prevent the people from reaching the polling places is an additional step in the wrong direction. I fear that Catalonia will vote for independence just to spite Spain.

 

The route Spain has taken is not what I would call the voice of reason. I'd rather try to persuade Catalonia to stay by showing the benefits and deal with the legality of referendum with legal means instead of throwing police against people.

 

What say you?

[Thorondor]

It is a complex situation, for a number of reasons, but it's evident that using force and curtailing people's freedom is the exact opposite of what should be done to settle things.

 

Nobody wants to be part of a state that oppresses those it is supposed to represent. It will solidify the position of those who wished to see Catalonia independent and it will make those who were on the fence regarding the matter adhere to that cause in ever greater numbers.

 

Attempting to silence unrest instead of fostering dialogue is the path to violent conflict. When you're denied a voice only trouble can ensue.

 

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people." - Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

[Space Voyager]

Damn, Spain actually sent police against people... Obviously their goverment did not do their morning check of StrategyCore's political analysts! Grave mistake. I hope all goes well and without violence.

[silencer_pl]

We are very concerned about the state of Democracy in Spain. Why shouldn't they send police if riots are happening? Police is there to keep order and if there is no order you send police force.

[Space Voyager]

As far as I'm aware of the situation, there would be no riots if police was not thrown into people's faces, trying to forcefully prevent them from expressing their will.

[silencer_pl]

And if people would listen to their demands no one would got hurt. As far politics and media go: Everyone lies.

[Space Voyager]

Sorry, but as a member of a nation who had to go through a modern-time war (luckily a short one) to be independent, I can not agree. There is a time when people have to take action or never see their dreams realized.

[silencer_pl]

Only if they are oppressed by someone else. Are they oppressed? If not, then there are more civil ways in obtaining such dreams.

[Space Voyager]

More civil than referendum? What is more civil than referendum?!

[silencer_pl]

Legal referendum?

 

 

Btw. I think you take my posts way too seriously. We all know that if Catalonia leaves Spain, this country is Doomed.

[silencer_pl]

[Kret]

Before anything I want to make clear that I oppose the referendum of independance of catalonia and tho I'll try to be as neutral as possible replying here it is possible that bias may slip through.

 

As a person living in Spain altho not in the autonomy of Catalonia I'll explain the following, the referendum was not "proclaimed" to be illegal, it was judged to be illegal by the courts as it violated several laws that would guarantee fairness in such a referendum, for example: that no public funds may be used by authorities for campaign purposes which has resulted in several members of the catalonian autonomic goverment to be under investigation for emblezlement of said public funds. The entire referendum itself has been used by the separatist members to cause spite for years now and they've shown many times that they do not care to follow law in this regard, even the laws of their own autonomic constitution.

 

The results themselves show how haphazardly the organization of it has been, with people taking pictures of themselves voting more than once at different locations each, some even managing to vote up to 4 times or that Michael Jackson voted "No" using the online voting system. Even if we decide to ignore these issues, the 90% figure (give or take) that have voted "yes" to said independance is not really significat when less than 43% of the total census voted, particulary when of those that didn't go some didn't want to participate in an illegal referendum and others are actually afraid of expressing their dissaproval of the separation due to fear of how they'll be treated later by neighbours, friends and work colleagues as this particular political issue seems to be highly sensitive.

 

Now, for the police intervetion at the sites and the violence that ensued. It was ordered by the courts that the "Mossos D'escuadra" (the police of the autonomic region of Catalonia) to confiscate the voting urns as they are still a police force that has to abide by spanish law, but unfortunately some decided to perform this task with the least ammount of effort as they simply showed up, asked a few questions and decided to state that "they could not reach the places to confiscate the material" which resulted in the police forces of the Guardia Civil and Policía Nacional to take over said tasks. As they proceded with this task they met with scalating resistance and violence ensued from this and said violence scalated further into severe confrontations that resulted in a lot of people getting injured. Do I agree with the use of force? This is loaded question as you expect the police to do their job but how are they supposed to do their job without using force when people obstruct them by either blocking their way and refusing to move or by holding down the urn with force or even throwing said urns to the officers when they can't old on to them any longer?

 

Now, as far as my opinion goes for the matter of the actual referendum itself, I would not oppose it if it weren't for the fact that the reasons they're calling for independance are based on lies that essentially depict Spain as an enemy of Catalonia that has been leeching of its wealth and mistreating the catalonians when it has been the catalonian schools that have been indoctrinating the teachings that Spain is "stealing" from them while in many schools they've severely limited the classes given in Spanish resulting in complaints from non catalonian parents that have moved there. And it has been the catalonian autonomic goverment that has cut the budgets of their hospitals while they still mantain the costs of having Catalonian "Embassies".

[Space Voyager]

Thank you for another perspective on the matter, Kret! I can not judge the use of funds or the organization of the referendum, l both can be a big problem, definitely - and can lead to the results being questionable or plain useless. I'm even less qualified to judge the truth about who did what in Spain-Catalonia relations.

 

The main problem international media have described is that the referendum for independence is simply not allowed by the Spanish constitution. If that is so, than no court can judge it legal under any circumstances. Being a minority, your chances of changing the constitution are more or less non-existent, so you're basically faced with two options; never becoming independent or ignoring the constitution. It was the same with Slovenia. In the end, we were recognized by the international community because the right of the people for self-determination is above any constitution. It is on "the people" to prove their right to be called a nation, naturally, which is impossible for self-proclaimed religious or anarchic groups.

 

The point - judicial system of a country is bound by constitution (laws...) so the ruling could hardly be any different but the decision to act in other ways than political or legal was made by the government. They knew that the more force they will use, the more resistance they will face and this can not lead to anything good. My opinion only, but Spain could act very differently.

[Space Voyager]

I've been reading all kinds of responses on Catalan crisis lately. Views of more educated people vary so erratically that I will not lie about having a correct picture of the conflict. Most agree that both sides are pushing the conflict far too uncompromisingly.

 

To correct myself though - Slovenia (and the rest of the federal members) DID have the right for secession written in the constitution. Not that this fact stopped Yugoslavia from going into war which devastated Croatia and Bosnia, but the right was written. Also a lawyer, specialized in international law explains that the right to self-determination is not above the right of a country to stay whole, both rights are supposed to be viewed as equal and the circumstances are what gives either a precedence over the other.

 

As an example - the only modern-times example of "non-constitutionalised" secession is Kosovo, where the right for self-determination took precedence because of the years long oppression of Albanians. I'm not at all diving into that conflict as the views on it make Catalonia seem like unanimous decision of all implicated sides.