Primary/Secondary Positions

[DragonHawk]

Hey all,

 

Just wanted to see how you guys were interpreting the primary/secondary positions as dictated by the roster. I'm pretty sure that since there don't seem to be any hardcore rules associated with this, everyone's interpretation will be subltely different.

 

I'm treating the primary skill as something for which you have been explicitly trained by X-Com. Example, Ong and Howardson are trained as troopers, Kacur as a psionist, and myself as an Engineer. The primary skill is the role you play...primarily. I don't think there are too many variations for this, eh?

 

The secondary skill is one I'm concerned about. I get the feeling that this is interpreted somewhat differently from person to person. Some discussion on this point would be nice, so that we can figure out exactly what it means to be the secondary medic, or whatever.

 

I interpret this as the role you fulfill in a pinch - the role that, if the primary is ill (or otherwise incapacitated), the secondary can fulfill, but not necessarily with the same level of expertise and certainly without the same pool of experience to draw upon.

 

Also, for me, the secondary is an official designation, granted by the Commander. This has a number of implications. Most important is that anyone can have this skill, even if it's not in their designation. They merely aren't on the roster to perform that duty - it doesn't mean they can't and won't. Can this get messy? Oh yes, it can, but I'm assuming you can roleplay something other than superhumans... Second, is that there is a possibility that you simply do not have a second designation, because your skill set is too brief, or the Command thinks you are valuable where you are.

 

Examples...

 

Right now, Ong does not have a secondary. He is Trooper... not Trooper/Trooper, but Trooper. He is a fighting soldier, foremost, that's all he does. Why? Because, if you read his bio, his character has no personality ( ), and was bred to be a soldier. So that's what he does. I don't have a problem with him being assigned a secondary in something like, say Hacking or Medic, but I don't expect to see him in Sciences.

 

Jacko is a Trooper/Sniper. Despite the fact that he loves to carry that sniper rifle around, he should be a trooper first. (Actually, I think sniper should be of a skill set Trooper/Trooper, like HWE, but that's another story).

 

McBannok is a Scientist/Engineer, he does a lot of research and stuff. He seems to know everything... he seems to require a narrowing down on his bio. His research is his primary goal... He likes building stuff in his spare time (not that this should make one an engineer), so he's a secondary engineer.

 

I think there's lots of room to flesh out any ideas you've got within these positions. They aren't meant to be heavy-set restrictions.

 

What do you guys think?

[Ion Mage]

I personaly think of it as; you have had 2/3 of your training in your primary, and 1/3 of your training was spent learning the secondary.

 

So of course a primary engineer is a better engineer than a secondary engineer. but the secondary engineer is better at building things than everyone else.

 

Thats all ive really thought about it.

[Loonie]

Well my point of view on this thing is like this:

 

Secondary position varies from skill to skill. You see a secondary Scout for instance can preform a proper scouting job, but with a greater risk of faliure than a primary one.

 

But he is not limited just to that! The fact that he is a secondary Scout also means that he is capable of running faster in a normal situation. For example if my character Kacur would be running alongside Howardson, I would be faster since I am a secondary Scout and he is not (but obviously O'Conner who is even an Intelligence Agent would beat my dusty butt ). Same with a secondary Sniper. He has a better aim in ordinary combat situation than an ordinary soldier with no Sniper positions.

 

Anyway you have to remember that just because you can do something, thanks to your secondary position, there are also other bonuses in ordinary combat situations . Just like in real life, if you happen to be a good programmer (meaning that you do it for a living), that means that you can fix your computer on your own a lot easier! BUT you have to think logically what those bonuses are.

 

Another example was at the last mission, when DH told me to make something up about the liquid in the test tube that I was examining. Now I wanted to write something scientific, like say "The liquid must be highly corrosive, since I can see that the tube already has a few cracks and it couldn't have been from falling, or it would be smashed completely." I could have done that if I was at least a secondary Scientist, but I happen to be a Psionisist/Scout. So what possible interesting thing could a Psi come up with?

 

"Liquid with psionic properties" (Please don't torture yourself DH for putting me in this position ).

 

That is also one of the reasons why I am currently requesting secondary Scientist position. "I" want to go into greater detail during sims, but "my character" simply cannot. But the reason for me requesting secondary Scientist is also because my Bio is much more compatible with that! In it I wrote quite a few times that Kacur is well educated, whilst mentioning only once that he has greater stamina and speed. So DHs point should be taken here. If you want to transfer yourself to another secondary position, make sure that your Bio makes it credible (although you can of course ask to update your Bios with changes that have occured since you arrived on Arkunis IV )

 

But anyway the way you interpret secondary position is also dependant on what the secondary position is. For instance a secondary Scout is called upon when there is no other sniper, whilst a secondary Scientist is more of an assistant to a primary Scientist. He works constantly (although less than the primary one), whilst the Scout doesn't have to if there is already a primary Scout on the team.

 

So I guess that's it (hope I didn't confuse you too much )

[Ion Mage]

That makes much sense

 

Glad too see you're so roleplaying-conscious, loonie

[DragonHawk]

lol, you guys should have been around during the reign of the "talking vine".

 

heh, Ok, here's how I see Kacur's position in that particular scenario, since you're using yourself as an example. He's got the intellectual's background, there is no reason at all why he could not have determined the break in the bottle to be something other than psionics. We've all done our high school science, we all know what the deal is with respect to corrosion, so that's not the problem, right? You made something up, and I'm cool with that.

 

With respect to scouting, I tend to see it as your stealth and ability to find paths, quietly. It's not an element of speed for me... anyone can expend energy to run fast, but not everyone has the talent that allows them to move quietly (I certainly don't, anyway ).

 

Heh, the way you're talking about secondary scientist is like you're talking about grunt who lifts test tubes or something. Keep in mind that in your off hours, your primary position determines what you do... Ion Mages' guideline of 2/3 primary, 1/3 secondary is one I wouldn't mind applying here. 1/3 scientist is not a lot of hours.

 

But seriously, you've got some interesting ideas and perspectives. Anyone else (post on this board)? hahah.

[Ki-tat Chung]

maybe sec can be from history? i intend to ask mouse if i can get hacker as my sec. in my bio (which i sent ages ago, but i think mouse lost it), i studied in IT and had a degree. maybe minimal training form x-com and mostly from education? of course, as we all aggreed, prim is fully trained by x-com./

[Ghost]

My thoughts on primary/secondary positions (as well as positions in general) would be as follows:

 

-- A primary position is the job that you actually do, the job you are trained to do. Ghost has been trained as a sniper and so in a team, he will be assigned as a sniper.

 

-- A secondary position is something your character also knows, or can do, but he has not received specialised training in it. It could be something like a hobby, or something the character has done in his past, or just a skill a character has. Ghost for instance has scout as secondary. He has never been trained as one, but during his time with the Cult of Sirius he learned (despite his body size) to move around fairly unseen (which earned him the name Ghost, read bio for details). It is just a skill he has, moving around a bit more stealthily and being able to spot things a bit sooner, something learned in his past, as well as a little because of his primary rank (sniper).

 

-- Positions in general: I'd like to point out too that there is no such thing as stats in this sim. Being a scout doesn't automatically make you run faster for instance. Things like that would be determined by your bio. Say for instance a character says in his past he has been a professional marathon runner before he got recruited by X-Com as a scientist. Well naturally this character would be able to run faster then most people, even scouts. I would say you need to look at this less as a game, but more like a simulation from real-life. Your skills and how good you are at them is for a good part determined by the character itself, by the bio, the background story. And a part of it of course is training, because regardless, a sniper will be able to shoot more accurate at longer ranges with a sniper rifle for instance (unless you have something about that in your bio). Hence, your bio is very important, as it sort of defines the character you are.

What I'm trying to say is that position does not matter that incredibly much for what a character can do, except in some situations, scouts can stay hidden a bit better *provided the player rp's the fact that the character hides well good*. Also the example Kacur gave about Howardson running slower, and O'Conner running faster then him, that wouldn't entirely fly, as Scouts don't run faster by definition. An intelligence agent is not likely to have been a trained sprinter for instance, so it could be just as likely that a grunt could still easily beat him in a running match, despite the fact that he's a scout/scout. The game is not about stats, but how you want to roleplay your character The positions are only a bit of a guideline there, most likely more important would be the bio. I am a sniper/scout, but if Brainiacus would show me how the basic controls of the Patton work, I would still be able to fly it (although granted not as good as a trained pilot of course), not because I have the pilot position, but because my character has been shown how to by a pilot.

 

This is just my 2 cents on these things. If something is not entirely clear or you don't understand what I mean: Ask away, and I'll be glad to enlighten you further on my ideas about it

[Ion Mage]

Now ghost's explanation is something i like .

 

It kinda coincides with the 2/3 primary, 1/3 secondary thing, but placing more emphasis on the biography.

 

I guess this truly does qualify me for being able to speak ascidian, even though im no diplomat? (check the normal RP thread for details).

[Chrysalid_zombie]

In the beginning we had no secondary, now we do. For this reason I look at the secondary positions as skills we have learnt recently (Jacko was certainly no sniper before) or at some point in the past (for the newer peoples). Afterall, I consider my character to be continually evolving in the sim, so new skills being learnt are a vital part of this. In other words, it isn't just you choosing a secondary skill that affects the in sim play, but also the simming that affects your secondary skill.

 

It made sense in my head anyway... :hmmm:

Cheers

[Ego Terrorist]

When I first started simming many moons ago we didn't have things called secondary positions. I put myself down for position of medic and was my basis for my character, intially I'd refer to Yorke as 'Cpl_Yorke' but then one day I decided to start calling Yorke 'Dr_Yorke' so as to place empasis on the medical abilies of the good doctor. When secondary positions came about I decided that I could only really have one and that was medic/medic which really did seperate me from the combat medics and such like and it allows me to be more doctory

[Brainiacus]

Not going to read all of what you guys wrote, but here's my idea of the position system.

 

Primary position: This is what you are. This is what you should roleplay. This is what you were always amazed by when you were just a little kid, what has always been your hobby, and what you were professionally trained in... possibly by the very best.

 

Secondary position: This is to add a little breathing room to your roleplaying. Just being a dumb trooper can get boring. Always hacking consoles will get tedious. Continuously producing ammo clips for an AutoCannon will start to get on your nerves. The secondary position is what you have always likes to do as a pasttime, when not practicing your primary hobby or being trained professionally therein. Although you as a character have a very decent amount of skill in this secondary ability, you do not match up to people who have the same ability as a primary. Yet, in their absence, you can replace them effectively enough to save, hopefully, quite a few lives.

 

Tertiary position: Wtf?!?! No, not wtf. Everyone, and I repeat, everyone has received basic training. In what? How to shoot minor arms. How to switch a DDU on and hit the 'ANALYSE' button. How to hold a sniper rifle and break your arm while trying to fire it. How to use a medkit and effectively nearly kill the patient instead of curing him, or being smart enough to press the 'STIMULANT' button, which no matter what happens, will administer a stimulant to the patient/victim. I know I'm not sounding very coherent here, but everyone can do a bit of everything. The results however, are not for you to decide... if you do stuff you weren't professionally trained in, be prepared for the wrath of the GMs. Still, if there's no hacker around at all, and that console just HAS to be hacked, miracles could very well happen.

 

Primary position: Incredibly well trained

Secondary position: Decently trained

Tertiary position: Basic military training

 

Special case; primary and secondary position are identical. Gasp. Yes, gasp. Does this mean that this character's favorite pasttime was practicing exactly the same hobby as his regular hobby? Aye. Primary/secondary doubles are enormously skilled in whatever they specialised in. They will even surpass a sole primary in ability, although, mind you, not by much! However, even while sleeping these people can reload their rifle if they were trooper, or psionically influence female personnel if they were psionists (I'm not going to state the reasoning behind that last comment). So what's the catch? For hardcore RPers, the ability to RP what they love to RP, and not have to do other stuff. For softcore RPers, the ability to excel in whatever they double positioned in, although they shouldn't expect to do that much better than a sole primary like I said earlier.

 

So what about tertiary position for these people? They received the same training, but, they need to store less information and abilities in their braincells. This is by considering them only having 'one' actual specialisation, which might be more to the extreme, but will still take less effort for them than to have two things to worry about. Thusly, they paid more attention during basic training and edge more to being jacks of all trades than people with two position picks. Still, they can horribly mess up in the tertiary department and would never perform better in this area than a character with a certain ability in the secondary position would.

 

Primary/secondary position: Enormously well trained

Tertiary position: Basic military training, but paid some more attention

[Loonie]

Okay, bottom line would be, as far as I'm concerned, that the primary skill is the one that you preform on a daily regular basis. No doubt about it. Secondary skill is the one which you do not usually preform, but if an emergency arises, then you are required to preform it (emergency meaning that there is no primary positioned character in a sim (or in XCAS) with your secondary position or that there aren't enough of those primaries.)

 

That's more or less all the relevance they bear on the simming. Secondary position can be a character's hobby, but it isn't neccesary (depends on the member that is simming the character).

[DragonHawk]

So we've got two main points, which were generally never in debate (sorta):

 

1. Your primary is your best / assigned task.

2. You can do other crap, you're not a dumb block.

 

Secondary, as the consensus goes, is for "roleplaying" benefit. It helps to expand your character into something more than a killer(trooper)/nerd(engineer)/geek(scientist) stereotype. How you play it, or how you consider it, is up to you.

 

Personally, I think that the secondary starts to lessen in its signifigance as a character becomes more experienced, but whatever. A roleplaying choice.

[Chrysalid_zombie]

My secondary became vital to my character when all the snipers were in hibernation . Just look at me now, wondering around moaning about how "they didn't make autorifles like this when I was a boy" and the like.

[DragonHawk]

Heh, are the sniper rifles bolt action? The auto rifles (IMO) have limited application - standard rifles can fire automatic too.

[Chrysalid_zombie]

The X-com sniper is an old fashioned 'take your sweet time' bolt re-load. Good fun that is I'm not sure about the new Ascidian one, I think they're semi-autos, but don't trust me on that

[Ghost]

Assuming semi-auto here as well on the git sniper rifle. The X-Com one should be a regular lock and load for each shot, bolt action rifle aye

[Saber Warrior]

It's me again! Now I look at the roster and noticed that I'm the only one without a secondary. Disregard the bio as at that time when I wrote it, I was still a newbie in my role playing and like all newbies I tried to create a character that looks cool and said little. I blame it on watching too much anime with anti-social characters. I found out later that my character wouldn't be very nice in the sims if I just follow the bio. Take this for example:

 

<<Capt_Ko>> Hey Ong, what's up?

<<LT_Ong>> ........... ::lights up a cigarette and tries to look cool::

<<Capt_Ko>> Those are bad for you.

<<LT_Ong>> ........... ::gives Ko a creepy look::

<<Capt_Ko>> Oooooookay.........

<<Dr_Yorke>> ::signs Ong up for psychiatric evaluation::

 

So that's what happened. Anyway, I'm thinking of a position change and come up with something. Since we're giving the squad leaders more responsibilities, I'm thinking of introducing the position of Tactical Officers. In the real world, these guys will be back at the base, the command APC or anywhere with access to maps, comms equipment and maybe sattelite coverage. Their role is to coordinate the attack of the teams at the battlefield and issue orders in regards to the enemy positions. In the sims, the GM will be the tactical officer and will decide to either stay at the base or go with the team on the mission. The equipment would something like a modified vacc suit or light ferronium suit with radar and comms equipment on the back, binoculars and close range weapons like pistols. If you guys remember the old clips from Alliance, the officer have the ability to see what the other troopers are doing by using cameras on their helmets, so we can use that concept. Lets take an example:

 

<<LT_Ong>> ::tells the driver to stop the APC and proceeds to power up all the comms equipment:: Team, this is Command. Sattelite coverage is coming online now........we've got 3 no, make that 4 bogies digged in. I'm sending the coordinates now.

 

and another one:

 

<<LT_Ong>> ::listens at the various chatter from the team:: Team, Command here. Howardson, provide suppressing fire for the rest of the team. Doc, Kacur is wounded at this position so get there quick! The rest of you, prepare to retreat to the LZ. McBannock takes point and Jacko covers the rear. GO GO GO!!

 

If any of you guys played the first Mech Commander, just think of the intro. That's the idea I'm thinking of. Opinions?

[DragonHawk]

lol, we don't need no stinking Mech Commander!

 

Seriously though, maybe it's something to try out. If Ong wants to do that, that's fine, but then he won't see a lot of combat... hehehe. I think I would rather keep Ong's sword swinging abilities where he can use them. Any comments on this idea?

[Loonie]

I have to say that this could very well mean the salvation to the problem that DH was reffering to. The one where Sergeants have to be ordered around by privates .

 

I would therefore propose the following:

 

1) In the event that we manage to get the sergeants, lieutenants... to remember to order the team around (and order it good I mean ), I think that there wouldn't really be any serious need for the thing that Ong described.

 

2) In the event that this problem is not solved, then we could elect one of our characters (hopefully a high ranked one) that would do this sort of thing. He would stay in an APC or craft, or whatever and co-oridnate the team like Ong said.

 

Not a bad idea there and if we don't solve the leadership problem, then it would prove to be a very good solution indeed

[DragonHawk]

heh, what does Ong's solution actually imply? It means that instead of going to the field, the tactical officer stays somewhere else. Now, what is the advantage of that? It doesn't solve much, because it requires us to dedicate one person to be a non-combatant, every sim. We get a corresponding reduction in firepower.

 

What it will do though is to dedicate someone to control, but that person won't be doing much else. I'm not a fan of the trooper-cam thing, as in Aliens, but if the controller doesn't have a way of checking his trooper's status, position, etc, then the controller can't do much. For simming purposes, he won't be ::shoots sectoid:: or anything, so he'll have more time to type out whatever commands he needs.

[Ghost]

In the sims, the GM will be the tactical officer and will decide to either stay at the base or go with the team on the mission. The equipment would something like a modified vacc suit or light ferronium suit with radar and comms equipment on the back, binoculars and close range weapons like pistols.

 

DH, the Tac Comm can come on the mission, if he chooses to. It would make it a little easier on the GMing though for some of the officers (read:me). I already spend too much time on my character's poses, so having to GM alongside it would be difficult for me. I could GM, but I can't GM and play my character at the same time (curse you people and your short poses )

[DragonHawk]

Oops, didn't read that. But what difference will it make which officer it is, if he comes on mission? The application he's referring to is on a larger scale, one that we don't have.

[Loonie]

Well to be perfectly frank you're right there DH. It doesn't really matter which officer does it. Only one thing matters though: That he/she can order people around effectively and has a good tactical mind.

 

However I think you would agree that it would be a bit more realistic as far as chain of command goes for a Lieutenant to order around the team and not a Corporal

 

And Ghost, believe me the sim would be drab if everyone made long poses, so it's not too wrong if there remains some variety in the sim (though I agree that the short poses aren't making it easy for the long pose people )

[Ghost]

Sure Loonie, I know that, and I'm not saying everyone should make long poses, but the last time I was present (not this weekend) I noticed that the poses were a bit *very* short in most cases. There's still a big blank space between short and long poses, so a bit longer might be nice.