What went wrong with XCom?

[The Veteran]

This was originally posted in the XCom Apocalypse forums HERE

It was written by a user named 'Dragonlord' this April just gone. This is what he said and I think he makes some really good points...

 

XCOM3 is a great game. This board is the living proof of this. But it's not fantastislich like it's predessor.

 

What happened?

 

- REALITY.

I think the scope of XCOM was much more believable..."Damn it they just took over argentina, there goes 5M of the budget...well at least we won't have to deal with soccer riots... let's see if those crazy extraterrestres can"

Compare that to: "They just took over Solmine errr, no more iridum for me..."

So while the idea of linking resources/factors to corporations was great, they could have done the same with Countries.

 

-The FEAR FACTOR.

Sectoids vs Antropods, which is scarier? I think we all see the antropod running in terror right now. The problem now is that the "hidden" threat is no longer hidden. You know where the shots come from. And you know a sigle shot is not enough anymore to kill an agent.

THIS SUCKS. I mean, i never liked when my agent's brains were splattered all over warehouse walls, but that was so much friggin fun!

Ufo's are not intimidating anymore. They look like a pile of poo. And some of them look more like diarhea once shot down. Where is the tech? The sound of metal tiles being stepped on? Bring back the bright lights/fire!

 

- COLOR

Too much damn color in this game. Looks like strawberry land instead of a messed-up future. Don't get me wrong, they graphs are cool, but graphs are not what made UFO so great. more dark should be used. When have you seen a terror movie that is played in a full-palette of colors?

The night effects too, where are they?

The cityscape is nice, but it gives you the impression of being relegated to a small problem rather thn a world struggle. I want to save the world, mon!

 

- BALANCE.

Some parts of the game are too easy. Having ca$h trouble? Raid an organization back to the stone age. This sucks. Because it makes it necessary to raid in order to survive, and this in time compounds to making your agents much stronger than aliens due to experience in killing humans. At least with the laser-rifle trick in XCOM you did not make your agents uberstrong in the process. ORGS should be also more prone to attcking you in retaliation. What happened with the ground vehicles is evidence that they did not beta test the game as much as they should have.

 

- Interception missions. I love these fights. but they can get quite ridiculous. Like having 20 hoverbikes against one UFO, it can be visually pleasing, but it gets old. Besided, it's annoying how one mis-fired shot will get you in trouble with transtellar. i'd prefer more One-on-one fights to keep it clean and simple, like in XCOM-UFO. The mission maps are too big in my opinion.

 

All in all, i love XCOM 3 APOC, but they made some big mistakes that kept it out of the "BEST GAMES OF ALL TIME" Realm...what do you think?

[Fox]

I figured you posted here too... along with probably every other forum in here... Feel the need to become even more post-masterish? I guess NKF is catching up to you...

 

But yes, he does make some very good points. My biggest hatred of Apoc: biological technology. I HATE that stuff. I think it's completely unrealistic. Sure, it could happen somewhere, sometime, but it's still stupid in my opinion. I think if they wanted to keep the biotech theme, they should have put in their ideas for the biotech recreations. Like the HUMAN versions of stuff. Hmm, many ideas coming to me... time for a new paragraph...

 

Here's what they should have done, without having to change too much:

1. Make the aliens harder to kill, mainly with use of better AI.

2. Make X-COM have to remake the captured alien tech, so they could use it, and at the same time, make it better, to counter the more intelligent aliens.

3. Change the UFO styles. They do look like poo. Plain stupid.

 

And in response to night effects... They didn't have them, did they? I never noticed it until right now, but missions at night are still lit, aren't they? Boo.

[Skonar]

In regards to the 'Organic' styled aliens, and the 'Retro Future' look of Apocalypse...

 

If one wants to defend them, they can be defended very effectively.

 

The enforced retro futuristic look of technology and architecture in Mega Primus could well be a very clear showing of just how manipulated the average population were.

 

Mega Primus, a utopia? Observe the existance of the Mutant Alliance and SELF, proving that racial tolerances are close to nonexistant. Observe the bodies in the recyclotorium, the fact that the Mega Primus police force are not people sworn to uphold the laws of Mega Primus, but are in actual fact for every purpose glorified security guards.

 

The amount of money that changes hands daily from the perspective of X-Com, high level goods, is massive. How much must the average citizen be expected to spend daily in Mega Primus' society? How heavy must the stresses be there placed by advertising, and how heavy are taxes? Weighty situations indeed.

 

The aesthetic styling is just a reaffirmation, in my mind, that nothing at all is right in the social experiment of Mega Primus. Indeed, people are being manipulated like cattle in an attempt to cling to power by a very few corporations.

 

As for the aliens...

 

Consider the integrity behind the 'Base' alien lifecycle. (Queenspawn, Multiworm eggs, Multiworms, Hyperworms, Chrysalis.)

 

That clearly existed for some time, and is probably the 'original' form that the 'Other dimension' aliens inhabited.

 

The life cycle was a peaceful one that was, probably, very slowly terraforming the Alien homeworld into something more suitable, Hyperworms growing into Chrysalis's to form massive podlike structures, gigantic organisms in thier own rights, to provide a home for Queenspawn.

 

The Micronoids undoubtedly arrived at the Alien homeworld with some pre-existing knowledge of earth, and began to infect the local aliens. They would then have mutated the alien lifecycle into a manufacturing method, altering the core genetics involved, and utilizing their own advanced knowledge to produce the dimension gates.

 

'Pile of poo'? You try generating a warship out of primordial life. =P

 

This is, of course, just my opinion.

[Rattler]

Ya the lack of night missions was a real downer. I can't stand the colors used or the UFOs. They really don't look threatening. I don't mind the bio-tech, I thought it was bought time they put those in but they don't look like they can be used by humans. Where's the trigger on the damn thing? I rarly ever had cash trouble only when playing on the super hard level did I have a cash flow problem all I did was cut back on some expenses(switched my aircraft weapons from plasma and missiles to just lasers) Half the time in the later part of the game I just let the UFOs come and drop their men off. The massive destruction the UFOs and my aircraft cause the damage is horrendous(I lost my base on several occasions) There's only fear in the early part of the game and that is only for the first 3 or 4 times that you've played the game

 

 

If they had managed to finnish all of it(by this I mena get the whole crime thing working well) I think it woulda been a great game. To me the only real selling point is the Real Time option.

[The Demi-Godly One]

Yeah, if there's one thing X-com Apocalypse is missing it is night missions. THose add a really nice effect.

[Strong Bob]

Considering that a lot of missions take place indoors, I don't mind the lack of night missions. Besides, I usually did all I could to avoid night missions in UFO Defense because of the annoying vision range restrictions.

 

I dunno about the rest of you, but I found the sight of a Multiworm or Anthropod much more fear inducing than a Sectoid. I mean, the Sectoids are little grey men with bug-eyes and a gun, the Anthropods have a more "monstrous" figure and even make slurpy growling noises that send a few shivers up my spine. But I agree with the fact that soldiers are too powerful, but at least they don't get killed with a single shot as you mentioned. I mean come on, sometimes even the toughest armor in UFO fell to a single shot from a plasma rifle!

 

As for UFOs looking like poop... What are you a pervert!? I personally prefer the dark brown-black saucers over the silver blocky UFOs from the previous title. The rainbow color scheme of the city is also explained in the manual, I rather like it... But I think it's ridiculous that the retro-style laws also went for military and police vehicles.

 

And if you haven't noticed, there ARE bright lights/fire and the sound of footsteps on metal floors. (Although I think some computers don't support those particular effects anymore, due to software reasons most likely) But I'm not certain what you mean by a lack of "tech".

 

Well, X-COM Apocalypse remains my favorite game of all to this very day. (Despite the fact that it no longer works on my machine. )

[Fox]

You don't need to be a pervert to know what a pile of poo looks like, dude.

 

I disagree with the fear factor of Apoc aliens. The sight of Sectoids and the other various aliens (except for maybe a silicoid or celatid) gave me much more fear than say an anthropod. I think it is more plausible that sectoid-like aliens exist IRL, this is probably why I feel a bit more scared by them.

[Strong Bob]

You don't need to be a pervert to know what a pile of poo looks like, dude.

The point I was getting at was the UFOs reminding him of poop. Come on, when I first saw those Scout UFOs the first thing on my mind was maybe an egg or something... Not poop.

[Araanor]

Real-time/turn-based combat. A game with both has the weaknesses of both. All values has to be balanced to be workable in both systems and compromises are made. Both has to be balanced, both needs AI programmed, sucks up resources. If you have real-time, foes can't be as dangerous. One-shot kills are workable in turn-based. Cover doesn't work nearly as interesting in RT. And there's no suspense.

 

Frankly, real-time isn't for the type of game that X-Com is. It's supposed to be a tactical squad-based game. More often than not, you just line up your guys to shoot down whatever alien runs by in real-time.

 

With all that said, Apocalypse has the best implementation of a RT/TB-combat system I've seen. Arcanum suffered more.

[The Demi-Godly One]

That's another thing that was missing, balencing the modes, in my opinion, turn based is a lot easier than real-time. They should have tried to make the AI better on turn based.

[Psy Guy]

One thing that bugged me about Apoc was the flow of it. When the UFOs show up theres a huge air battle and some UFOs drop off some troops into buildings. You send in your troops and take them out. A day goes by then the UFOs come back *repeat the cycle*. This cycle isn't so bad but in 10 minutes of game time you go to about 3 UFO missions and 5 building missions. Your troops take damage, need medi bay time and you end up struggling to muster up enough troops to finish the last missions. The early mid point is the worst where you don't have shields or bio guns and the aliens start breaking out the big guns; this point of the game is basiclly going out to kill the enemy quickly so you can advance your tech. Its not intill you have your early craft, shields, devistators, and Type B bio rounds were the game starts to go from tech struggle to balanced fun. In UFO (x-com 1) the game was more drawn out and battles tended to be more "optional" and the air battles were less hellish.

The divided tech in Apoc wasn't that bad but the balancing isn't right. There is a lot more involved tech topics in the physics field while the bio topics are less and faster to research. Usally i find myself swamped with researching disruptors, shields, and alien craft parts while my bio team has finished up with all there research. The success of x-com was based on getting disruptor tech, shields, and new craft. While the bio gun is great aginst aliens packing shields. Its only useful as a backup gun for limited limited situations and the effort to get toxin C isn't worth the risk and effort to get all live and dead aliens (except that evil queen). So with the limited use of toxic guns as a primary weapon and nothing else going for it in that field why should there even be a bio research branch?

As for the poo UFOs... its original to say the least... and its nice to see a UFO with some kick (unlike those early UFOs that would cruise while your interceptors beat them down with dual plasma cannons). One thing i don't like is the hoverbike and hovercar.. X-Com is defending the city with a 4 seat car with hover tech and 2 hardpoints. The Hawk Air Warrior and the Valk are more of what i would expect in a combat air craft.

 

In all i would say what made Apoc a not so great game is the lack of testing and tweaking. Im sure with some work they could of made Apoc a monster of a game. (if only someone would come in and "finish" the game)

 

-PSY GUY-

(Sectoids are scarier than the blue guys but at least there smart enough to pick up stuff from off the ground )

[Strong Bob]

Hmm, I guess I forgot about the whole research issue. There's indeed too much of a focus on physics, they should have at least put more junk in the biology and mechanics categories.

[The Demi-Godly One]

I also think they should make more buildings, I found a severe limit to them.

[jwh]

I agree about the research. The physics seems to be so much more important than the biochemistry. One could argue tha really good player could get through the game without doing any bio research.

 

BTW DGO what other buildings do you think they could have included?

[Alan]

One could argue tha really good player could get through the game without doing any bio research.

 

one could argue that, but only if one discounted the fact that the alien buildings must be researched before they are raided.... and that research is on the bio route.

 

but yes, i often find my bio scientists sit twiddling their thumbs while my physisists are working day & night. so, while the split research is an interesting idea, it ultimately didn't work... or at least not as well as it should have.

 

the human aircraft.... the hawk and the valk, yes, they are proper combat aircraft, but they seem to be chafing at the bit. i keep getting the feeling that they'd be best deployed in wide open spaces, more like the old style interceptor combat, or praps space. I think the high speed, yet slow turning does it.

the phoenix and the hoverbike... while they do seem somewhat odd, with the bolting weapons onto a normal car feeling (interstate '76 anyone? ), they are useful. it's the fact that they are more agile, and in a city that is more important. that and the fact that you can bolt a plasma cannon onto a hoverbike and have a vehicle thats equal to most smaller ufos helps. but yes... it seems that the vehicles available aren't quite suitable to the task before them.... or could it be thats how it's meant to be, until x-com can start making their own...

[Fox]

I, for one, did not like Apoc's interceptions. Whenever a UFO came through the gate, I wasn't scared of the UFO itself, I was scared of my rockets slamming into Marsec and Megapol's buildings, and having to pay mad amounts of cash to cool them down.

 

I think a cool thing they should have implemented would be Aliens attacking the city itself with UFOs. I mean, I rarely saw a UFO just go to the city for the sake of blowing up buildings (I have never seen an overspawn). And if they ever do, the company they attack ends up hating you. Pretty dumb in my opinion. Maybe they should hate you if you just ignored the attack and let people die, but if you try to destroy the aliens... sigh. Such potential in this game, owell.

[The Demi-Godly One]

I also do not like how you can buy a huge swarm of hoverbikes and be pretty much unstoppable, they should have made the limit on your vehicles a smaller amount.

[NKF]

Oh I don't know, the alien bomber is the definite anti-hoverbike-swarm UFO around (including the battleship, as it's also got a multi-bomb launcher I think). Blew up my entire hoverbike armada before I could bring in the heavy guns.

 

- NKF

[The Demi-Godly One]

I've never seen that happen to my forces, but then again I toss away my hoverbike swarm before those ships come (Although I'm pretty sure you can counter-act the multibomb problem by attacking at a far range). But I can't be sure because by the time the alien bombers come around I have Hawks.

 

Hmm, well I find the annihilator way too unbalencing, once you get about 3 you can take on just about everything.

[Rosstoid]

I found the aliens more scary in XCOM1. In Apoc the anthropods look like they were made of blue icecream. The XCOM1 sectoids may be rather errr, small and cute :alien2: but the ethereals are mysterious looking and the snakemen and chrysallids look sinister

[Groovechamp]

One could argue tha really good player could get through the game without doing any bio research.

 

one could argue that, but only if one discounted the fact that the alien buildings must be researched before they are raided.... and that research is on the bio route.

 

but yes, i often find my bio scientists sit twiddling their thumbs while my physisists are working day & night. so, while the split research is an interesting idea, it ultimately didn't work... or at least not as well as it should have.

 

the human aircraft.... the hawk and the valk, yes, they are proper combat aircraft, but they seem to be chafing at the bit. i keep getting the feeling that they'd be best deployed in wide open spaces, more like the old style interceptor combat, or praps space. I think the high speed, yet slow turning does it.

the phoenix and the hoverbike... while they do seem somewhat odd, with the bolting weapons onto a normal car feeling (interstate '76 anyone? ), they are useful. it's the fact that they are more agile, and in a city that is more important. that and the fact that you can bolt a plasma cannon onto a hoverbike and have a vehicle thats equal to most smaller ufos helps. but yes... it seems that the vehicles available aren't quite suitable to the task before them.... or could it be thats how it's meant to be, until x-com can start making their own...

I'76 rulz Groovechampion is my fave *g*

 

Sofar I know, the Org Extroplainer belongs to the Senate and ordered this kinda Law of keeping the 60/70's design =)

 

/me not sure =)

 

Groove

[AgentBif]

IMO, Apoc was never finished. Replay value is severely hampered by the fact that there is essentially only one winning technology: Toxguns. You can't use disruptors or nukes cause then you never cash in on the shields. By the time you get toxguns, the game is too easy... The aliens fall like flies.

 

They should have designed the tech tree to be broad so that you could never complete it. There could have been multiple branches of winning technologies so that each time you play, you focus on developing one real well. For example:

 

Psi: Psi enhancers, Psi blockers, Psi weakeners (makes enemy susceptible to psi), etc. Psi defense drugs (for your soldiers)

 

Bio chem: Tox guns, alien gas, alien organisms designed to hunt aliens (hyper worm launcher, XCom brainsucker launcher), stun missiles

 

Stealth: enhanced motion detectors, probe drones, cloaking devices

 

Conventional: distruptors, emp nades and warheads (temporarily disables shields), napalm warheads (function like entropy: chews on the alien, disolves the body, leaves the equipment).

 

Having just one viable branch of tech development makes the game pretty boring after you've played it once.

 

Also, they should have expanded the politics side of the game: There could be senators vying for office and each faction supports them. Some politicians support XCom, others are in the pockets of the other factions. There should be some more realistic way to make up for city damage in battles, etc. As the politics side was implemented, it always goes the way of everyone hating you except the government and megapol... Too predictable and unavoidable.

 

As far as the other stuff people have mentioned: city scape, retro 50's look, realtime... I loved it all. I just wish they had made more of the game.

 

bif

[M. Hoz]

Lots of the stuff Bif mentioned was really supposed to be in the game,

and some of it CAN be added by the midnight editor.

 

The UFO's look much more like pies,cookies,cakes,donuts

And Biscuits to me.

 

Turn-Based Night-Missions with Poppers and Brainsuckers?

 

AND

if there was no real-time,

you would say that Poppers

and Brainsuckers are too hard!

 

AND

Considering that you have to capture a Battleship

full of Megaspawns and Psimorphs for it,the Annihilator

isn't too strong.

How long does it take you to build THREE?

To equip them all with 3 Heavy Disruptors

and 6 Medium?

Considering the trouble it takes to make them,

they're not too strong really.

 

AND

the aliens never "fall like flies"!

what about Multiworms (not much of a threat,but still takes LOTS of shots)

and Megaspawns (one is hard enough,but they come in groups too).

[NKF]

Ever drop an anti-alien gas grenade or detonate an AAG missile (or grenade with set timer) in the middle of a huge squad of skeletoids/anthropods/hyperworms/spitters? They will definitely fall like flies!

 

I've surmised that the only technologies you need to actually win the game is to research the Biotrans (for interdimensional troop transportation - this means capturing a type-3 alien ship) and to research the alien buildings as you clear them. And with a decent amount of skill, everything else is strictly optional. Getting the biotrans to the destination buildings in the alien dimension with the entire alien attack fleet still intact would be a real challenge though.

 

- NKF

[TabulaRasa]

I have beaten the game and the last mission was really hard! SO MANY FREAKING ALIENS:crazy:!!! A lot of megaspawn, sectoids mostly. Yes the dropped like flies, but there was at least 30 but way more than that up to even 100-120!!! It was hard, but i took one guy, shot out the generators. I must have missed the massage that said 'alien building disabled' d'oh:dontgetit:! That happened a lot to me with other buildings. It would be cool if the building started to collaps WITH the guys inside:devil:! I would like to see the soldiers and aliens crushed by tons of falling debris! As long as it would give you an OBVIOUS warning.

 

I like real time a lot. It is a big improvement, ive got to go now though, more later:laugh:!