Lurker

It's spreading: http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/t...rs_x.htm?csp=24 Now it's not just StarForce, it's SonyForce, too. -- My wife loves StarForce. She sees that huge list of computer games that I won't be buying, and it makes her all excited and giddy inside. Of course, that's yet another reason why I hate StarForce.

I thought about this too, last night. We don't need to list every game that has StarForce in it. Here are a couple of lists of Boycotted StarForce games: http://www.glop.org/starforce/ http://www.fileforums.com/showthread.php?t=70333 http://www.closecombat.org/forums/showthread.php?p=46530 There, done with that list. (With some of these, you have to scroll down a bit to get to the lists.) You can google "boycott starforce" for more links. -- :: -- DOCUMENTED STARFORCE BREAKDOWNS: The purpose of this list is to create a list of hardware (and software) that are known to be vulnerable in a deleterious way to StarForce. We want to know what specific damage StarForce does, so that people with similar hardware and software can beware of StarForce in the future. Therefore, I do disagree with Pete's suggestion in one respect. There are still older versions of StarForce floating around and they are still doing damage to current equipment. So, when it comes to creating a list of current hardware that is vulnerable to StarForce damage, we will still have to take the older versions of StarForce into count. That's how I see it -- in order to do the most good for the most people. It is already interesting to note that there are a whole lot less first-hand experiences with StarForce damage than there are rants and rumors and second-hand experiences with StarForce damage -- not that the StarForce damage isn't deplorable. But, I kind of expected that there wouldn't be too many reports of first-hand StarForce damage, or that these reports of StarForce damage would have to be researched and dug up and quoted and linked to. -- Here is a current link to a current StarForce problem with Aftershock, and last night Nagash even had a huge multi-page list of all the things that StarForce was printing out documenting the error, before Nagash's attached list got edited away. http://forum.ufo-aftermath.com/index.php?showtopic=1582 This time around, it wasn't damaged hardware, but a buggy StarForce that was slowing him down, and this time around, it looks as if the StarForce people were able to help Nagash solve the problem. Alas, once again though, I don't know whether it was a hardware issue or a software conflict, but his hardware was experiencing extreme slowdown with the current version of Aftershock's StarForce. Now, if we can just get Nagash to tell us what hardware he was using and how the problem was solved, then we will have something useful.

-- Okay, I went and read the thread, and the name of the specific Brand and the Model number of the DVD player were not mentioned. I don't doubt that it happened, but until I have the specific Brand and Model of the DVD burner that was damaged, it is still only second-hand information and not really useful to making this specific list. However, this part does contains specifics that are useful to our list or start to qualify: Here we see that it was Splinter Cell 3 and StarForce Version 3.4.71.19 that did the damage. We also get hints from subsequent parts of the message that the damage was not permanent and was fixable with firmware, but that the damage came back once StarForce was installed again. Also, very useful information! But, what Brand and Model of DVD player are we talking about here? In fact, that's part of the problem here, that we are trying to document. Some of the older versions of StarForce are still doing the damage. Yes, Pkovak was using Aftershock and a recent version of StarForce, but there are also older versions of StarForce floating around out there that are still doing damage. Anyway, it seems like a really good idea to stay away from the older games that had StarForce in them. I'm planning on staying away from Splinter Cell 3 and Silent Hunter III, thanks to the recent information, but I'm still no closer to knowing if my specific DVD drives are safe or not, should I decide to install a 'modern' recently released game that has StarForce on it. Now, go forth my minions and provide us with other useful first-hand information, so that this here list will be complete.

Downloading Firmware didn't work for Pkovak, but it might or might not work for other DVD drives. While creating this list of equipment and doing this little science experiment, we need to dig in there and bring forward the Brand and Model of the DVD player that was broke and subsequently fixed with firmware. We want to try to see what trends emerge. For myself, I breathed a sigh of relief when I realized that I don't have a LG GSA 4120 DVD drive or a BTC DVD drive. I have three different NEC drives, but my boycott of StarForce has prevented me from running the experiment on my personal equipment. I'm too chicken to do so. As part of this science experiment, it would also be helpful if Noob told us what other equipment was in the machine at the time of his DVD breakdown. If, in the future, we discover that not all BTC drives go down when exposed to StarForce, then we can look to Noob's list of other equipment to see if maybe some other combination of equipment was a contributing factor in the breakdown. The more details we have to work with in the long run, the better. -- :: -- It has been suggested (or thought) that my list of restrictions in my first post are too limiting. I wanted to get away from rumors and second-hand information and get straight to a list of specific first-hand problems. Now, I know, that this list will be slow in coming and may take weeks or years to flesh out. First, people have to find this thread, and second, they have to have a first-hand experience with details to report. I know it will take some time. The are many fewer first-hand experiences than second-hand reports and rumors of the original experience. As an easing of my restrictions, I would say that if you find a quote or a link where a person is saying, "This is what happened to me. This is the equipment that was damaged or the software that was broken by StarForce. This is what I tried to do to fix it. This is some of the other equipment in the system at the time of the breakdown," then you have found first-hand information, and it is fine to post a quote of that information here and/or to provide a supporting link to that information. If we do that, then in time we might be able to create a list of actual equipment that is practically guaranteed to breakdown when exposed to StarForce. That's what we are after here. Also, if you find a link someplace else where people have already started this little science experiment or made such a list of equipment or list of first-hand experiences, then a link to that site would be very appropriate to this thread. It would give us data and details to work with. We just want to avoid rumors and hearsay and try to stay as close to the facts and the details and the first-hand experiences as possible, so that the list that emerges will be really useful and really truthful when it is done. -- :: -- On other threads, I have seen rumors and reports of people saying that StarForce erased their Serial ATA hard drive, or made their Nero or Alcohol software stop working, or made their CPU fans stop working, or made their CD burner stop burning. But, these have all been rumors or second-hand reports from what I could tell, and I haven't found or been led to the first-hand reports. If you can link us up to the first-hand reports where they are telling us what happened to their own equipment, what version of StarForce or game with StarForce did the damage, and what equipment or software they were using at the time, then that all would qualify and be useful information to have quoted here or to be linked to from here. I guess, somebody or some bodies, could do a StarForce google search, read all the different information, and then link to or quote the first-hand experiences that they come across, where the person is saying, "This is what happened to me and this is the specific Make and Model of my equipment that was damaged by StarForce." That's what we are after and qualifies to be added to the list.

For awhile there, Aralez couldn't sign in and post here. For awhile there, he sincerely believed that he had been banned or was being censored or was being prevented from signing onto the boards. But, as we can all see, he finally got through, up above. And Pete, I too, agree. I have said a number of times to Aralez in my personal email to him, "Sign in and tell them what you are thinking. It will be a lot more legitimate and useful if it comes from you than if it comes from me. And, it won't look so funny." I even said as much in an email message to Aralez ten minutes before I signed on here just now and read your message. I, too, think it looks funny or strange when I post for him or quote him. But, for awhile there Aralez was telling me that he couldn't get through, and that when he did get through, the forums were acting funny or not letting him sign-in or not letting him post. He thought that he had been banned. So, he sent me instead. As a friend to Aralez, I complied, and did what he requested. Maybe not being able to log-in and post is partially the reason why he was so 'forceful' or 'vigorous' in his response up above when he finally did get through -- pent up frustration? There's always a sub-text. -- :: -- I'm really not interested in forming a lynch mob. I consider myself as neither a dedicated fan of Altar nor as an enemy of Altar. In fact, I'm feeling rather detached or impartial as of late. But, I do think that it is important for Altar to know what our reservations are, to currently know why Aralez and I (and others) have not bought a copy yet. That's what is useful for Altar, and that's what I personally believe that Altar needs to hear and personally think shouldn't be censored away. (As far as I can tell, nothing here in this thread has been censored, which I believe is a good thing.) Altar needs to know, occasionally, what their potential customers are really thinking. That's the only really useful thing that Altar gets from these forums, in my humble opinion. I thought that Martin's clarification of the issue was very useful. He straightened us all out and let us know that there are tools and that promises will indeed be kept, and that he was only looking for people to beta-test the tools or to polish the tools before delivery. That was a useful message or a useful response, in my humble opinion. -- :: -- The modding thing and Aftershock in general reminds me of the movie "Field of Dreams." If you build it, they will come. If there are mod tools released and the game is stable or provides a stable platform upon which to build, they will come and mod. I can see it happening. Now, the movie and the famous saying doesn't fit in every situation, though. Some people can't affort baseball tickets, so they won't come, even if you build it. Other people have other reservations or limitations. And the only way that those reservations or concerns can be dealt with or responded to is if those people are free to express their reservations or limitations, and then the owners of the baseball field are made aware of their concerns. My reservations or concerns -- no US Release of Aftershock or a late US Release, StarForce on the DVD, and crashes to the desktop being reported in the game. Those are the things that are currently keeping me out of the 'Field of Dreams' where Aftershock is concerned. I think it is good for Altar to know that. They need to know from time to time what their potential customers are really thinking and why they are not buying. That's what I believe. I think Martin knows now. I have done my part or fulfilled my obligation to Altar. There's nothing more I can do now, other than to wait for my 'Field of Dreams' to be built and delivered to me -- or not. Time will tell.

Martin, thank you for your response. I like hearing from you. -- :: -- I asked Aralez for specific sources of his complaint or specific examples. Aralez wrote a message to me and said, "Maybe you want to post this?" -- 30. Computer Games Romania: What about the modding community? It is well known that the fan base can keep a game alive many years after its release. Jiri Rydl: That's true and we work on improved modability of UFO: Aftershock. We believe our fans will enjoy this game long after its release. http://www.computergames.ro/site/p/article...aftershock.html GamersInfo.net: Your website mentions a modding kit. What types of things does this enable the community to do? Jiri Rydl: We want Aftershock make open enough to see a new mod every half year! But more seriously - we want to release modding tools for changing almost anything in the game from soldiers and mutants skins to new weapons and effects. http://www.gamersinfo.net/index.php?art/id:459 End of what Aralez wrote to me. -- :: -- I, the Lurker, personally was looking for the talk about the 'modding kit' on your Altar website (I remembered and latched onto it long ago, but now don't know where it was at), but Aralez remembered and found other things. Anyway, that explains in part the 'strict condemnation' that Aralez was expressing. He had very high expectations where Aftershock was concerned, and to be honest, so did some of the rest of us. And, other interviewers apparently have latched onto the promises regarding a robust modding kit in their interviews with your people. I personally am not ruling out a purchase of Aftershock -- if there is a US Release, no StarForce in the US Release, and the patches really do knock down or knock out the crashes-to-desktop, then I can see myself buying and getting involved. People will mod, or they won't mod. Time will tell how that turns out. But Martin, the more robust the modding kit you deliver, the more people will tend to mod, or at least that's how I see it. The modding for Aftermath really didn't get going until two, three, four months after Aftermath shipped. So, as I see it, we won't really start seeing serious modding with Aftershock until two or three months from now, until after a patch or two or maybe three have been delivered -- just like with Aftermath. However you should know right now, if you wait for the modders to make the tools, like you did with Aftermath, it might take them more than a year to make some of the tools, or they might not make them at all. I have suggested more than once that you contact Aralez or Sigget and hire them to make specific tools or make specific mods or mod kits. I can't remember who made the Milkshape tool for Aftermath, but that's the person you want to contact if you want a similar tool made for Aftershock. Contact them and hire them to do the job in a timely fashion, if you want modding up and running in a timely fashion. And, if there is license concerns, you can work up other compensation for their efforts besides monetary compensation -- a free game, a trip to your headquarters, a current version of your game without the StarForce that your beta testers are getting for free, or being made into an honorary beta-tester, etc. Again, that's how I see it. Timely development of tools equals timely development of mods. People really don't want to mod until they have a stable base to build upon -- I have seen that message here and on Altar's forum and even on Relic's forum the last couple of weeks or so, since Aftershock and Winter Assault were released. A week or two ago, Slaughter started up a separate thread on your Altar site (and here I think) calling for the modding to begin. The overall response I saw to Slaughter's call to mod at the time was, "Let's wait until there is a patch or two and the bugs are gone, before we start modding." The 'Call to Mod' isn't working right now in small part due to the fact that there isn't a stable base yet, upon which to build. I, too, can see that changing in time. There may well be people in the modding community who will want to be involved, but you have to get the attention of the right people, and don't be too surprised if they demand that you first supply them with something stable to work with, before they start working. They don't want to have to keep redoing their work over and over again as you keep supplying new patches over and over again. When it comes to modding, a lot of it depends upon timing.

Pete has suggested that we start a list of the make, model, and the details of anyone who has experienced a StarForce crash of any kind. What we want here is to know the nature of your problem, the make and model of the piece of equipment that has stopped working right, and general information about the other hardware you were using when you believe that StarForce ruined your machine or hurt your machine. We want to see the trends -- to know what types of equipment are vulnerable and what types of documentable problems have really happened to you. Please don't report, unless you have actually had a piece of your own equipment go bad because of StarForce. We don't want rumors here. We want documentable firsthand facts. If it happened to you, then you qualify to respond, and we want to know the details. Once again, if StarForce has hurt your personal equipment, tell us what it did, and what equipment you were using when it was hurt. We don't want to know about your neighbor's experience, unless your neighbor signs in and reports his own experience. We are trying to avoid all rumors here and get to the facts. Also, the version of StarForce or the game that StarForce came in would also be helpful information to have, so that we can indeed track what is really causing what. Thank you. -- :: -- EDIT: And, so that the rest of you don't feel left out. If you have second-hand information about StarForce, want to rant or vent about StarForce, have interesting second-hand links to share, or want to report your neighbor's experience, then please go over to this thread: Why I hate StarForce *rant* http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/index...?showtopic=4399

-- I, too, have wanted to see more details of the specific hardware, make and model of DVD and Hard Drive and Motherboard that were associated with these crashes or broken hardware. Another part of the problem is that some of the older games that scrambled SATA hard drives are still out there. Those old games and old versions of StarForce are still catching people unaware and erasing or wiping out their hard drive, even though the problem has supposedly been fixed in the most recent versions of StarForce. There's still the old stuff out there, and nobody is getting enough warning that it might in fact wipe them out. Only a blanket ban or boycott of all StarForce is sufficient to protect in all cases. And, apparently, the DVD destruction issue still hasn't been solved, even to this day. The StarForce makes DVD and CD drives do things that many of them really weren't designed to do. It's just that some of them are asked to move in such a way or read in such a way that it actually breaks them. They, apparently, were never designed to move in that way in the first place. That's the only way I can think of that they are being damaged, and a reinstallation of their firmware can't bring them back, because they are literally broken. The user gets angry, goes out and buys a different brand of DVD in rebellion, and that new brand just luckily happens to be able to move in the way that StarForce requires or is under warranty if it breaks, and nobody knows that it was the StarForce that had killed the former DVD drive until months or years later. Other people in other threads have gone into much more technical explanation as to how it breaks the DVD drives. I just know from what I have read that it has been reported (and documented) to do so. And some have reported their CPU or power fans going off or stopping working after installing StarForce, but I haven't heard so much of this complaint, though someone was complaining of it on Altar's site. StarForce goes low-level, which is why so many people hate it and are fighting it. It goes right to the innards of the machine. -- Yes, the most appropriate current thread for this list of StarForce Disasters would be: http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/index...?showtopic=4399 -- But, I will create a new thread, and then come back and edit this message. -- EDIT: THE NEW PLACE to report your documented personal experiences with StarForce: http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/index...?showtopic=4486 Pete, please pin up the new thread if you will, edit my rules or parameters as you see fit, and then let them tell us their personal experiences in detail, as time goes on.

I don't know how new or old Pkovak's hardware is either, but he was one of the Aftershock Beta-Testers, and he was running with a pre-release, StarForce Free or StarForce Unencumbered version of Aftershock that he got for free as a reward for being a beta-tester, when he decided to compare his version of Aftershock with a retail version of Aftershock. He wanted to see how much the StarForce slowed the load times. Then the StarForce in the retail version of Aftershock killed his DVD reader, really slowing down the load times. This was November 1, 2005. It was the latest or most recent version of StarForce in the current retail version of Aftershock that wiped out his DVD drive. :: I was wondering if anyone has actually tried this System Restore thing and gotten it to work, because people have already proven on Altar's site that the StarForce uninstall doesn't completely uninstall StarForce. Alas, though, Pete is wrong again about one assumption. The StarForce actually destroys the hardware, and a careful reading of Pkovak and others's comments show that no amount of uninstalling, firmware updating, or reinstalling of the operating system, or system restoring can bring back damaged hardware once it has been destroyed by StarForce. On some machines and some hardware (certainly not all, or everyone would be boycotting StarForce) the DVD reader or the SATA HardDrive is permanently and irrecoverably destroyed. Now, some people might have gotten their SATA HardDrive back through a reformat of their drive and a reinstallation of the Windows XP, but these people aren't getting their DVD reader or DVD burner back. It's destroyed. Aralez just informed me yesterday that he realized just now after reading these posts that StarForce (not Aftershock) completely destroyed his DVD reader too a few months ago, and he had to go out and buy a new DVD drive. No amount of System Restoring will bring the DVD drive back once it has been destroyed. So, I'm not sure if I want to gamble on the Aftershock Demo either. There's also indications that people who currently have more than one DVDROM/CDROM drive or more than one hard drive are currently experiencing the 'gotcha' aspect of StarForce and having grief. People need to be informed up front that StarForce might permanently damage their DVD burner. Yes, I have to admit, at least for my part, that it is a bit of sour grapes. I'm feeling let down. But then again, for now, the question is kind of moot, because the US Release has been delayed for six months or so, and for awhile there, there wasn't going to be a US Release. So, I can't really join in all the fun, unless I want to buy a much more expensive import. I really don't want to pay a 'premium' price for Aftershock in its current condition. On the good side of things, the extra six month delay for us here in the United States will give Altar time to kill some bugs, and will give me time to see if all the crashes-to-desktop are really gone when I am finally able to buy the game. And, who knows? Maybe the worldwide boycott of StarForce will actually work and get their attention. And maybe, just maybe, Aftershock might be released in the US without the StarForce? I can still hope, and hope is a beautiful thing. Anyway, I'll never say never. But, there are a lot of maybe's right now, even for me. -- Finally, I too always seem to find Martin's comments to be very informative. The only thing that I ever saw Martin get really wrong was his understanding of StarForce. People are being conditioned or trained to believe by the StarForce developers and the StarForce advertisers that StarForce is completely harmless -- but in fact, StarForce is more accurately described by the HitchHiker's Guide's description of Earth, "Mostly harmless." Those who experience the 'dark side' of StarForce know that it isn't completely harmless. And the fact that StarForce actually destroys the DVD hardware when StarForce strikes making recovery completely impossible, or the fact that StarForce wipes out a hard disk when it strikes making booting impossible and a reformat mandatory, kind of tells you that the StarForce isn't completely harmless. And, this 'fun' little gamble with StarForce is going on even to this very day with Aftershock, as Pkovak's experiment demonstrates. We just don't know how many other DVD players and DVD burners are out there right now waiting to be permanently destroyed by StarForce -- but be sure to grab your towel before you stick out your thumb to hitch a ride. :: :: EDIT: Another link to various complaints or disappointments in general, including StarForce. http://forum.ufo-aftermath.com/index.php?showtopic=914&st=45 The StarForce Rant, both here and over there, where people tried their best to dispel the assumptions of safety and tried to point out people's inaccurate assumptions. The StarForce advertising really is working, as I still believe that the majority of people think that StarForce is completely safe or that StarForce does absolutely no permanent damage: http://www.strategycore.co.uk/forums/index...?showtopic=4399 http://forum.ufo-aftermath.com/index.php?showtopic=865

Considering the amount of time I spent playing Aftermath (an extreme amount of time), and considering the amount of time I spent here on this website, I felt a personal obligation to let Altar know why I'm not going to be buying their game for now, and I felt a personal obligation to Pete and Slaughter to let them know why I wouldn't be involved in modding, for now. As long as we are not censored or deleted or some such, I feel that I have fulfilled my obligation to both Altar and StrategyCore, where Aftershock is concerned. I have explained myself and my reason for being unresponsive to the call to mod, or my reason for not participating this time around. And, it looks like Aralez explained why he isn't joining the call to mod, right now. So, there's not much more I can do right now. I just have to wait and see. We do the best we can.

-- I, the Lurker, was probably the one who was celebrating the loudest when Aftershock was announced. I was certainly disappointed in August 2005 when I was told that there would be no US Release, no US Release that would be simultaneous with the rest of the WorldWide Release of Aftershock. My disappointment led me to a 'wait and see' attitude towards Aftershock. I wasn't going to buy an import. Then the week after the release of Aftershock, I did experience a bit of shock and disappointment. I too had received assurances in both private and public, that things were destined to be different this time around with Aftershock. But, I have said to Aralez and others that I'm not going to get Aftershock if there are reports of Crashes to Desktop. With Aftermath, Altar never fixed the game-stopping bugs where the generated mission map had impassable bits every now and then, thus preventing you from getting to the other side of the ship or the other side of the mountain to finish the mission. And, there were still the occasional crashes to desktop with Aftermath, even after all the patches. When I saw reports of Crashes to Desktop with Aftershock, here and on Altar's site, I experienced a bit of shock and disappointment, and it only firmed my resolution not to get Aftershock if there are reports of crashes to desktop. I just don't have the time to beta-test a game or to the desire to go through the grief -- a personal decision on my part, nothing more. -- Then while perusing the boards, both here and on Altar's site, I fell into the StarForce controversy and was once again a bit shocked or disappointed or taken aback. I had never heard of StarForce, but as the week passed, I became convinced that it is important to boycott StarForce games. Once again, a personal decision based upon my personal interpretation of the evidence, and nothing more. On November 1, Pkovak wrote on Altar's site: AND Pkovak wrote: REFERENCE: http://forum.ufo-aftermath.com/index.php?showtopic=1299 AND now I the Lurker say, that time is only firming up my belief that it was a good decision on my part to join the boycott against StarForce. Again, it's only a personal belief based upon my reading of the evidence, and nothing more. -- Regarding Aralez's comments, I will NEVER say never. But, I too will openly and honestly admit that I experienced a bit of shock and disappointment where Aftershock is concerned, especially during the week that it was released. But, a US Release with no Crashes to Desktop and no StarForce being reported would be enough to make me change my mind and get me to buy Aftershock. On the other hand, if the StarForce remains and if there are Crashes to Desktop being reported even after all the patches, I really can't say that the 'good bits' of Aftershock will be enough to help me overcome my current objections or to draw me in. Only time will tell if I will change my mind. I can only say for my personal self, that I was a bit shocked and disspointed during the Aftershock release, as the realization finally settled in that I may never have my personal reservations or objections resolved and I may, therefore, never get to play Aftershock. That was a bit of a blow for me, a shock or a disappointment that took me well over a week to adjust to. But, I may never get to play Aftershock, ever. I just have to accept that, and move on. Time, and only time, will tell. I do appreciate PlacidDragon on Altar's site, and Pete and Slaughter here on this site letting us vent or rant without censorship, where this go-around with Aftershock is concerned. The open honest discussions will give us all a chance to make up our own mind, one way or the other, where Aftershock is concerned -- and we will do so in the light of information and according to our own conscience or feelings or beliefs. For me, where Aftershock is concerned, the jury is still out, though right now, it's not looking too good. But, things can change. -- EDIT BY LURKER: And, as another stab at topic or response to topic. I joined this forum to help Aralez mod Aftermath. It was a process that I wanted to be a part of. It was a great process and a great experience for me, a minor member of the Aftermath modding team. Recently, I missed having Aralez on these forums, and it looks like from his response that I will continue to miss having him on these forums. Aralez was the best modder here, the modder who actually finished the projects that he started, and he has been and will be missed. And, unless someone like him comes along to take his place, modding of Aftershock just won't be as successful as the modding of Aftermath was. But there is a vacuum to fill for someone who has the skill and the stick-to-it power of Aralez, now that Aralez is gone. We can never tell what might happen in the future. And, for some people, a really good Aftershock mod might indeed be enough to help them get over any reservations they might have about purchasing the game. Only time will tell how it will all turn out.

That review on Tom's Hardware is an informative review. Those guys know about hardware. But, I can see how the StarForce guy might be biased against such a review. Thanks for replying Kernel. I was sincerely curious as to what the 'signature of the beast' really looked like. I thought that the response from the StarForce guy at the StarForce thread on the Altar Forum was a bit flippant. They don't care or take any responsibility for those machines that they wipe out. You get that feeling quite a bit from them. But, then again, it might only be my personal interpretation of the evidence. Still, in one thread, the StarForce representatives say that they don't know about any problems, yet in another thread, the StarForce people actually admit that there have been problems. But of course, they assure us that there are no problems now, even though users are still reporting problems, even now. http://forum.ufo-aftermath.com/index.php?showtopic=865&st=45 Like you say, kind of funny. And, I say that it's all rather confusing. Still, nothing gives you that warm and fuzzy feeling quite like having your hard drive erased or having your DVD burner disappear or having your Nero or some such stop working. Gotta laugh about it -- it makes you feel so small and powerless and insignificant, sometimes.

-- Two problems that I know of. If StarForce wipes out your hard drive, then you can't uninstall. Others have reported that their DVD drive disappeared after installing StarForce and they couldn't get it back after uninstalling StarForce. That's a problem. They had to reformat their hard drive to get their DVD drive to work again. Which leads to the second problem, there is a rumor or a belief that not all of StarForce goes away after running the StarForce uninstall. There have been people who have uninstalled Aftershock, and who then reinstall, and the StarForce doesn't ask for the CD key the during the second install, which leads many people to believe that the StarForce didn't completely go away during the uninstall process. Thus, people come to the conclusion, whether rightly or wrongly, that StarForce prevents itself from being completely uninstalled and that StarForce is therefore a 'gift that keeps on giving.' -- I have been thinking about buying another hard drive, buying a copy of System Commander so that I can dual boot XP, and buying a copy of Ghost so that I can copy my hard drive to the new drive, and then setting it up so that I boot to either one drive or the other. On one drive I put StarForce and Aftershock, and on the other drive, the newer higher capacity drive, I leave it pure. Then see what happens. Will the StarForce jump drives, if System Commander makes it so that one drive can't see the other? I doubt it. But . . . there have been numerous reports that the people who are currently having problems with StarForce, the latest versions of StarForce, are the people who have more than one drive in their system, more than one hard drive or more than one DVD or CDROM drive. So, if I put in a second drive and try to isolate StarForce, it sounds like I might actually be creating one of the situations in which StarForce messes everything up. Like I said, or tried to say, the problems are subtle and hard to prove and hard to convince yourself that you might indeed be witnessing real problems. Everybody gets different results. And, I certainly don't want to chastize anyone who comes up with the opposite conclusion, because I can see how they might indeed come up with different results. There are plenty of reports from people who are having absolutely no problem with StarForce. And, then there are those who are actively boycotting StarForce. Is their boycott making a difference or getting anyone's attention? So many questions, and not enough answers. A boycott of StarForce is a solution or an answer, but will it work? As far as I know, it will only work if you refuse to install StarForce on your system, to begin with. -- EDIT: And, thank you Pete for letting us vent or 'rant' as the title says. I always feel that it is good to be informed.

Everyone likes a good flame or rant, unless it gets personal. Slaughter asked me for some facts. Well, about a year ago out of the blue, Slaughter sent me a personal message in which he told me all the things that he didn't like about me. I hadn't gotten such a list since I was in kindergarten over forty years ago. That was fine, but it didn't go over as well when I fired back a list of things that we don't like about him. I looked up Aralez, and talked with him, and asked him why he left. The response, "Slaughter." Slaughter is why Aralez left. A fact. You can find Aralez yourself if you want the fact confirmed. I was on the Altar Forum a year or more ago, and one of the messages was getting controversial, and I thought to myself, this thing is going to get deleted, and sure enough, the next day it was gone. It had nothing to do with downloading stuff, as Slaughter suggests. Another time, I encountered a thread in which people were discussing and mentioning stuff that had clearly been deleted. There was a hole in the thread. But, the real fact or the hard fact for me was the time that I encountered a controversial subject that I thought was out of balance, and I spent half an hour trying to compose a moderate balanced response. I come back the next day to follow up and my response was gone. If I remember correctly, many of the messages before mine and all the messages after were gone as well. Someone had taken the thread status quo ante, back to before the thread started turning controversial -- and there was a half an hour of mine totally wasted, because I had no idea that my input would get censored or deleted, so I hadn't saved any of it. And, since it had been censored and was now gone, I had no opportunity to study it and figure out where it had gone wrong or if I had done anything wrong. All the information that was organized there was simply gone. It really happened. I'm not making it up. Now, I can't say that it was Slaughter who was doing the censoring or deleting in these three instances. I can only say what I know, that it actually happened. I can also truthfully say that it has been at least a year since I last saw things disappearing on Altar's forum. Slaughter wanted to know, and now he does. Whether he chooses to believe me, or not, that is up to him. But, censorship can happen, and it used to happen much more frequently than it does now. I have developed one rule on these forums, stay away from Slaughter, and all is fine. I have discussed it in private email with others as well. If Slaughter wants to know what we think, sometimes we actually get up enough courage to tell him. But, most of us hold back and remain silent. Now, instead of discounting the positive and only concentrating on the negative, I positively emphasize that some of my best friends have come to me off of this and Altar's forum. Aftermath is in the top ten list of my most played games of all time. That's quite an accomplishment. I loved Aralez and his mods for Aftermath. I have enjoyed Pete's input, and I have been fascinated by the stuff that you, Kret, and Thorondor as well have brought to my attention. It's there in the record. I'm not flaming all the time. I can't see how Slaughter can be 'sick and tired' of me, because I haven't been here for months, and I haven't had any dealings with Slaughter for over a year. I came here again recently to learn. I was disappointed by the lack of a US Release and by the StarForce. I am hoping for a US Release of Aftershock without the StarForce, and it yes it is a shame that Slaughter and I destroyed this thread. But, censorship causes confusion and isn't always helpful. And, it is indeed time for me to go away for another few months. And, I do hope that TekDragon and all the others will find themselves a friend on these forums as time goes on. Don't abandon things just because I and Slaughter don't get along.

Slaughter: You can't link to the worst messages, and you know why. You know that you and other moderators do your worst, like driving away Aralez, in your private messages where nobody can see the damage that you do. But, you essentially just now said in your own written message that I don't know what I'm talking about. You just told me that the situation can't be on these forums as I interpret it as being. It's the implications, the implications that people don't know what they are saying or that they are stupid or ignorant for speaking up, but the implication is there whether you can see it or not. And, as always it's automatically assumed that it is I or the forum member that is causing the problem and not the moderator -- I'm automatically the one doing the trolling or saying my piece, but the result is once again a threat of banishment or censorship by the moderator. I'm not the one who is in a position to threaten banishment or censorship. Am I? What do they call it when the Moderator drives people away? And you are wrong, I distinctly remember many messages disappearing on the official forum because they got too critical or honest, and I had copies of some of the disappeared messages, long ago when it mattered to me. One man's critique is another man's honesty. You have no understanding of any of this because it is not your messages or your friend's messages that are getting deleted or modified. It's not the stuff that interests you that's getting deleted. You have never been on the receiving end of your chastisement or attempts to drive people away. And on the old forum, there used to be written notification that messages had been edited by Moderator. Now, the thing that you are absolutely right about is that I have not seen any of those 'edited by Moderator' on the official forum for a long time now. Maybe the new forums don't report edits, but you just told me that you still edit this forum and will edit it if you don't like what you hear. So, that kind of proves my point, doesn't it? And, before you get all angry like you usually do, remember that it was you who asked in public. It was you who initiated the response. It was you who made the threat of censorship and banishment in public. You just don't know, because none of your moderations get moderated or edited or deleted. Turn the task over to Aralez or someone else, and let them have a go at you for awhile, and let them threaten to boycott you because they don't like you or like what you say, and then maybe you will get a feeling for what's really out here. How would you feel if we told you that we don't like what you say and that we want you to go away because you really annoy people and that we are going to edit everything you say if you don't say it in a way that we like? How would you feel if we told you that you as the moderator are the greatest troll or instigator or inflamer of them all on these forums? Turn the table for just a moment. Put yourself in our shoes! How would you feel if you were us? -- BTW, telling someone that what they say is BULL is the exact same thing as telling them that they are stupid, and you know it. It's the same difference. It's inflammatory, designed to upset the participants.