Kozlov

Well, thats not that original, but at least it sounds convincing.

I liked the proposed somewhere (and not once) idea of taking the bad guys' side this time. Invade the Earth, send scouts, build mass destruction wepons, eliminate the resistance and so on. The gameplay may be rather similar to the present (without the shortcomes, desirably ) BUT with some pleasurable possibilities of games like Dungeon Keeper in terms of atmosphere. And down those miserable F-16s at last :alien2: By the way, when I begun my criticizing topic (How to prevent an Armageddon) i placed some alternative (though not so different) storyline eather. My point was - to make a game more struggle for survival, rather than to beat an enemy on our territory, than to move to its one. You should lose men constantly, lose bases and recapture them all the time. May be even not proper bases, but temporary strongholds, which are being captured, than you're forced to move to another ones. You're slowly wiped out, but with time (and research) your counter-attacks become more painful. And in the end you can come up with some anti-alien biological weapon (good old H.Wells) or destroing their mothership or be hired by alien fleet - whatever it is called "winning" This kind of story doesn't suffer from not so real ideas of beating them with brute force (like we have here)

Accounting troll: Nice points. I especially liked the alien warfare tactics books. However, the Vietnam example isn't so good if you remember what goals French and Americans were persuing. It was about about establishing pro-american (french), somewhat democratic regime in the country, rather than killing all Vietnameese. The same about Iraq. Much better example is german troops which almost eliminated guerilla resistance in Ukraine and Belorussia by preventing their support from villgers and town citizens (by simply killing everyone in some of them and killing 10 for 1 german soldier killed by guerilla fighters in others). Those aliens aren't much co-operative eather And you right about galactic warlords. I'm not against them. But I'm rather tired of fighting PURE evil, i don't believe in that, that's a catch. It is just natural (probably) human trait to paint his foe in evil "colors" - it is just easier to fight them if you think so. Many people tired of this - you can see so many fiction and computer games dealing with anti-hero. Even on this forums people talk that playing for aliens would be fun, or invading their system and killing them all (yeah, where were our princips? :angel: ) However, as for my perception of this game - it is less the case of evil aliens, but more of little planetary war in galactic conflicts. So i'm not criticizing the game for that. There were some other issues, that this topic about.

Matri: it's very good if so, I'll wait to get my own answer.

Ghostrider: just what I was about to say. Impressed of detailes :lashes: The airfight remains problematic as a part of the plot. UFO's run by idiots? Is there some research option to find their IQ levels? A few words about alien nature: they usually have two options - to be humanoid or to be some kind of bugs with a lot of disgusting liquid to spit in every direction. If they're human-like, they just made of negative traits, like egoistic, cruel, like to capture whole Universe, love to humiliate pure cows with lasers (X-Com ) don't like children and flowers. Our negative traits. In other ways - we're bad, but look at them - they're sooo bad that it makes us to look OK. I'm not even addressing the fact that our moral issues are not appliable on them. Bugforms, despite of inhumanly high IQ (by scenario) have only one instinct - to kill everything, that moves, and pretty much done with that. It would be nice to face some other type of them - not alien form of Dr Evil. So many other reasons of capturing the Earth and destroying the humankind can be invented! Hey I'm not telling it isn't the case here...any clues from the Game? It would be a spoiler, probably.

Well, everyone - I'd like to remind that the topic being discussed is: "If the storyline makes any sense" or "the issues you'd like to change in plotline and story in this game or the follow-ups" so i don't understand, why to speak about the biomass and spores. Why did they used them seems to be agreed amongst all of us and, as for me its beleivable. After use of them it's rather logical, that there would be some survivors (bunkers/underground/subs/infected patients in clinical boxes ). The points, that seemed far-fetched to me were (discussed at the beginning of the topic): 1. How small squad can control so vast territories? Existance of another resistance forces helps a little but still. I can be wrong here, if the model is like: they don't really control this territory, only control bases and make some intel. 2. Air combat. How human aircraft can beat superior alien ones, while we know that in the air technology always wins. 3. Research is VERY fast. Don't tell me that long research time will destroy gameplay. It is solved for example if you can USE an item after SHORT time (press here, insert this strange thing here), but it takes a LONG time before you understand how it works and able to reconstruct and make hybrids. Another ideas are warmly welcomed. As well as altenative storylines. For this or another game of this kind Matri: GOOD overview. As for air combat: after 2-3 ships were downed they didn't add fighter support? WW2 : bomber rides were supported by clouds of fighter planes. Neglect? Probably. Anyway, after some time (and lost craft)they have to understand. Gravity? That make sense, but, as technology advances, targetting systems bring the combat into distant one. You don't have to fire that cannon anymore, - its more like press&forget. VERY intresting point with live aliens capturing. Question is: how do we speak with them? - mental control?. That telepathy is always so easy solution, that it makes it unbelievable, like deus ex machina. And if we can, - these are soldiers and technicians - imagine some marine explaining to some 13 century alchemist how to build machinegun. Anyway - very intresting point and might have an impact on research. DarkCm: agree with biology preferrability stuff, - i study that myself I read some nice fiction book about this - called "To the South from Paradise" or something like that: they used genetically engineered animals for everything - as clothes transport in the sea and air - even as toothbrush and scissors. As for comp operated aircraft: we don't have technology for that now - it is in the stage of developing (it was used in Iraq for espionage). It is the airforce future (and not only AIRforce future). We have to control planes too much now, good CPU is all that needed: automated fighter craft with reactions and maneuverability better than any manned ones. How can we beat alien UFOs - is still a question for me. I would like this to be excluded out of the story - fight landed ones, than, when you have the tech - build your craft that can engage alien ones in the air. :alien2:

Hello, my friends. Don't get insulted by criticizm of beloved (by me also) game. I just wanted the "plotline and story" to become more beleivable. Like i said in the beginning - you and I can use our imagination (soldier=division, research shrinkage) but why, if the story can easily be changed to sound real? Well, not in this game, probably, but follow-ups. Biological weapons strike: You're perfectly right the purpose of that was our mass destruction. I guess, some more - with that biomass growth ploy. I wrote it before, just read the topic, it is quite long ShadowBlade: all the point is to make you feel you can't win - than you win. I suggested research beleivable scheme a couple of times in the beginning of the topic. As for middleage abstraction - with modern warfare we're starting to understand, that numbers are meaninless against technology and tactics (Iraq) Mentora: well, it may be another game, with different story. I suggested one in my first article in the topic. DarkSm: good points! Aliens, coming from the planet smaller than Mars is barely an option. Life without atmosphere? - NASA don't look for such planets as the possible life source. Science fiction is full of open space creatures and intelligent planets, but that's barely an option too, for somebody, who learns biology. Anyway, they CAN come from smaller planet ->>gravitation problems. BUT they can use computer-guided craft and won't be suffering (not in this game, i know - here they use manned UFO's) Constructing of Earth - adapted aircraft? - well, they constructed their spores, that's more difficult (it is). Armored vehicles are out of question - we don't make them either (nothing stands a rocket anyway), but remeber the terrible movie called "Independence Day"? - they got shield that stood even against nuke. And what about relativly simple anti-rocket defences (laser/plasma/quark supercannon ). OF COURSE those points are not a directive (oops they didn't think we have fighters left, just neglecting, etc.) - they have alien logic and think different. (How? - they fly only without defences - just a joke) However, all of these issues, I think, are to follow ups. P.S. I feel, that the subjects are repeating themselves.

My topic is enlarging and developing :inlove: I don't have a copy of the game now, so it is interesting to know, that alien force came from smaller planet (have to deal with larger gravity) , it is rather tough to intercept their aircraft etc, it is only a small renegade force, that attacking us. (thanks to Sindre, Ferigad). By the way, Sindre the topic started before the game release. The possible believable research mechanism was proposed at the beginning by me :angel: As for biological weapons (Ferigad) - the biological weapon is a weapon that uses biologically active factor/s to bring an enemy into incompatible of combat state. You can use influenza clone to make 'em sneeze a week . Mutants? - even better, we (humans) can't make it (all the mutant super-Rambo's in films make me laugh - it is sooo driven away from reality. All in all - people don't have a clue sometimes what do they, scientists do - they DON't make superman elixirs, -maybe in area 51 only they have too much money to waste.) About our atmospherical flight experience (Mentora): Aliens came from planet, right? Don't know how they evolved but I give my arm that it (planet) has an atmosphere too. They know atmospherical flight. Some adgustments for bigger gravity (say, bigger engine) - and WE are down. Here I'll cease to say the following: game came out and i don't know the storyline. So it will be stupid to criticize it. I opened this topic to say that atmosphere of the game, which was to come out has to be DARK. You must loose many men before you come up with newly researched technology. You don't stand a chance. Imagine that 13th century knight trained all his life to ride that horse and to swing the sword. Imagine him even on some planet with gravity 1.5 times bigger and atmosphere made of nitrogene. Here WE come with space-suits and automatic rifles, hit 'em with chemical weapons (the developement was tough ) and ... then a few thousands/dozens of thousands of spread survivors repel our troops? THE FIGHT MUST BE DESPERATE!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:

Tough interceptions you say? (Captain) Well that sounds good. I'll dissotiate myself from the air combat discussions, though stable inability of alien aircraft to stand or dodge rocket hits still seems to me ... our last hope in air fight As for city capturing: you 're perfectly right (Captain), that it is no need to capture all the cities or large parts of territory to bring the alien invasion down by some means (destroying the "Mothership", constructing some biological or chemical weapons against them). But the whole game concept relies on the control of the territory. You don't control the territory if the enemy is moving freely within. That's why i addressed the idea of capturing the territory by small squad as far fetched. The existance of other resistanse groups makes up for it a little. Your point that the use of biological weapons by aliens declares that they are not technologically superior is not so right: by using the weapons of mass destruction they killed all the humanity in one blow with no need to shoot every man, hiding beneath his car with their "gravitation ultrawave double action blaster enhanced head-mounted super cannon" Again, alien logic is different one, we cannot blame them for not killing us Here comes another interesting notation: aliens are always foes in computer games. They only want to kill/enslave us and rule the Earth. In psychology it is called "transference" - forwarding of OUR OWN traits to somebody else. The fear of aliens/AI/jewish conspiracy/machines - is the fear of ourselves. Science fiction is much more diverse, but it is off the topic. The interesting questions like: can they really have the biological weapons? (we're able to construct one only for protein based lifeforms, with cellular composition similar to ours. And such constructs, viruses mainly, demand a lot of research. If aliens have different DNA (say including 7 base instead of 4 in ours) they'll need to make ALL the research we made and more - they may do it NOW ) - are beyond this topic. P.S Ghostrider: What do you study? I'm making my DMD (dental medicine) in Hebrew university, Jerusalem. P.P.S Captain: I was great science fiction fan while my teenages, still love it, but it is kinda out of themes now - indefinite repeats of already used ideas. Azimov and Bredbery are still my ideals. P.P.P.S Ghostrider : books, by the way do you like Milan Kundera?

We can't. (Slaughter) Its good to have modern X-com remake anyway (with all the respect to Altar claims, that it is not remake). Can they make some patch later? Probably not. Patches affect some bugs usually, - don't change storyline. IDF rules where are you from, Ghostrider?

Thanks for replies, people, didn't expect for them so quickly. :inlove: I did read the story, Rocksk, though didn't pay attention to the existance of another resistance groups (thanks, Slaughter) - that's make the story MUCH more believable. By the way, Kozlov - is not my real surname. So, the concept is like this, i think: the mothership UFO, that we see spreading spores doesn't contain much of the aliens - small numbers only. Ok, give 'em to us, we can handle it UFOs bringing down and research stuff remains not that good for me: first - after all the ufological articles of different kinds and reliability (after most of them you doubt our ability to bring them down with a rocket or something else at our posession) and movies, and fiction. Anyway - if you equal the aliens in power from the beginning its not THAT interesting; second - even many labs, spread on dying Earth, without communications (as you tell, Slaughter), even at war don't research, say - laser weapons in 2 days. For historical example - it took years to germans to develope jet engine for planes - and that with all the previous knowlege (the first ideas of jet engine are dated back to 18 century, as i know). You'll say that if thay HAD the already BUILT jet and only had to reconstruct it - it would take less. Still, not days, or weeks my friend. Again - changing those issues is NOT going to affect the gameplay. For example, you can't bring UFO's down in the beginning, - you only atteck landed vehicles, but after you research some "quark alien supercannon" you mount it on your old Wildcat .. eeeh F-16 and, with good pray, - boom. The change for research i already proposed (short time to USE an item but long time to know how it works and being able to reconstruct) - by the way, till you can't reconstruct you depend on scavenging, save alien weapons for aliens and fight with mutants with human ones, which adds more tension and strategical thinking. My point is, after all - as long as you feel the desperate fight for Earth - it is a good game. And i think that all those small things make it. Surely I can pump up my imagination, thats all computer games about after all, but why to do it to make up for not so polished storyline? And the last thing. Alien mind is, well.. alien , so we don't understand their reasoning anyway (do we understand ours?) All the criticizm as for the alien invasion and progression is built on the assumption, that their logic is similar to ours. X-com series contributed a lot for such a perception. This may not be true and all of "why didn't they killed us from the beginning?" may not be relevant. I addressed more for the human factors believability (research). I know people addressing another factors as well (buildings entrance, transportation) all these - don't affect the gameplay, but add to the atmosphere. Anyway, they (Altar) didn't have time to finish all of these. I hope the success of UFO:AM will draw the follow-ups. Waiting for some interesting end. P.S I finished TFTD several times anyway (Ghostrider) P.P.S They won't have israeli edition, i think - it's not enough place here for alien landings (Ghostrider)

Hi there. Well, i've got to the forums onlly now and its kinda late to criticize the already built product. However, i wonder, why the storyline is so unrealistic? I mean - Ok you are dealing with science fiction, but when you're done with fiction elements (huge UFO, spores, biomass, etc.) you have to make it to sound like something, that is really happening. That's the science fiction basics. What do we have here? After the death of mankind we recruite the army of 7 men ??? . Those 7 (i understood that it is even too much for the most missions) take some light weapons and start to capture city after city (!), clearing them of mutants and aliens. I live in Jerusalem now, its about half-million city and from my army experience i can tell, that it will take me weeks (with some 20 men) if not month to simply search it for enemy, i'm not talking about the streetfights. Well, maybe the aliens are not yet walking the Earth, waiting for biomass (for some cause), maybe we're not talking about large cities - military bases only, still 7, or 70 or 700 is TOO FEW for world domination. I know, i know it's a gameplay issues - i'm addressing it in the end. By the way, X-Com said it was alien infiltrtation into living cities, and we simply played some anti-alien SWAT team to clear the landing sites, or alien bases Another point is taking various Ufos down. it's somehow understood in X-Com with its small/not armored/relying on stealth UFOs infiltration plot, but here - how, the hell, our F-16, MIGs or whatever are taking down battle UFOs that reign in the sky? By the way, do we have 7 pilots too? The sweet and fun thing is, that the concept of such air fight is almost the same in the games and movies: UFOs that fire untargetted desperate energy beams and human planes that use rockets to bring the enemy down. Do you think that aliens unable to build rocket? In the air better technology always wins (between equally skilled pilots and who the f.. aliens are - playstation funs?) And finally, to RESEARCH. It is nice, this modern concept of science. I work now in biological lab and it takes us years upon years to prove ourselves and the world very VERY small things. And it takes thousands of researchers around the world and dosens of thousands of work hours to come up with proven theory of some specific mechanism (i'm talking about theory how protein complex A affects complex B, not quantum theory ) and it is still long way to practical implementations :lashes: . However the research in the game takes at most a few days. With 7 academy mages, probably This issue is so easy to change: for example it will take short time to find how to USE the alien item (push a trigger here and insert this oval thing here), but long time to know HOW IT WORKS and implementions. The time is speeded up anyway. Now to Gameplay issues. The gameplay can be terrific, but when storyline and game process (research and Ufos taking down for ex.) is dumb it takes a lot of pleasure away. I can propose here some gameplay tweaks to make a good storyline after the proposed start: You and some other thousands/millions of men survive. You, naturally, rising up the resistance movement. You start with some 10-15 bases all over the world. Those bases are under constant attacks of mutant forces. you have to defend them with human salavged weaponry, loosing many men. You build some research and engineer facilities. You can't resist the aliens in open combat, but you can go out for intel: those aliens don't open an invasion, instead they wait until biomass and mutants finish you, they land here and there to invastigate - oops you come, took the equipment and dissapeared. You don't even think of capturing cities, hardly being able to defend your own bases. With time, aliens see that you're still alive and increase their pressure - here is the game progression, when it happens you have already researched some alien technology - and so on and so forth The secret of those golden age games is the good storyline, which appealed to you, you believed in it and wanted more - we want to read good stories, computer affrods us sometimes to be their part. Will someone make me believe? :devil: P.S By the way Terror from the deep killed me - they fought with harpoons in the year 2100 - even on the ground